‘It just feels so good to be in a space with other people who feel the same’

Pronouns: they / them

Content warning: references to eating disorders and body dysmorphia

Names have been changed and redacted to protect anonymity

In terms of your identity, your gender identity, your sexuality identity, whatever you prefer, how do you self-describe?

I would say queer and non-binary. I've used bi in the past, I guess, but that's before I knew that queer could apply to me. Yeah, but they're the two I use now.

And when did you find that you felt queer could apply to you?

Probably, I guess when I actually became aware of and involved in queer culture, rather than just being a person who was attracted to, if we're thinking about the gender binary at the time, who was attracted to two genders, but we're still existing within quite a heteronormative society.

And you mentioned that you liked 'queer'? What feels good about the term queer for you, when you use it?

I love the word queer, I think it's the most unlabelly label that I've ever come across. And because it feels so expansive, and there's lots of space within that to be queer in different ways. So I'm just thinking about bodies, it doesn't prescribe a certain body ideal. And obviously, gender, sexuality, politics, I think there's that political element of it is something that I really love about the label as well. That it doesn't just talk about one thing, it's an all-encompassing identity. And really, I think it can mean so many different things. So, it's a helpful marker when people use it because I think it's a good way of sort of signifying that you potentially have things in common with someone else. But within that, there's so much space, it doesn't mean that you have to look a certain way, present in a certain gender, all those kinds of things. Yeah, so I really like that about it.

Are there any terms that you hear and that you don't necessarily like, in that umbrella?    

Yeah, and I guess I go between bi… at one point, thought maybe I should move away from using bi if I was to describe... rather than using queer if I was to sort of choose a sexuality label. And I thought about 'pan', but there's something I'm not that crazy about it. I don't know why, but then I also am not that crazy about 'bi' because it does imply potentially that there are two genders. Yeah, I guess I don't have massive issues with them or anything. I prefer 'queer' because I don't really identify with either of them and think "Yeah, that describes me." And I think another one that I'm not crazy about is 'sapiosexual', have you heard that? 

I haven't, no.  

It's the idea of being attracted to intelligence. So, if someone is intelligent, then you're attracted to them. And I just think that's like a really ableist term. Yeah, it often pops up on dating sites, but it tends to be if you're queer, and you have everyone switched on, you're going to get some cis men possibly. And it tends to be used in those kinds of spaces, I think. Yeah, that's one that I'm not not crazy about.

And do you mind my asking, when did you first become aware of your sexuality?

So I think I came out when I was about 14, as being bi. But I think there was a long time before that, where I was kind of wrestling with it like, "Does everyone have crushes on their teachers? Or is that just me?" Or "Why is it that I find some of my friends attractive? This is all just a bit weird." And I thought there was actually something wrong with me even though I knew that gay and lesbian people existed, I didn't have any in my life. And it wasn't really talked about that much. And so, for a long time, I thought that maybe there was something wrong with me, that I didn't find every person attractive, but I found any kind of person attractive, if that makes sense? And, a lot of it is tied up in body image stuff for me. So, I have a history of eating disorders and body dysmorphia and during that time, was in a place where I thought that I wasn't attractive enough or thin enough to be bisexual or to be gay, so people wouldn't be interested in me anyway. And it sounds really horrible, but I kind of set about just having relationships with people that were interested in me and they were always cis men. And then it wasn't until I was about, so I'm 34 now, it wasn't until I was about maybe 31 or 30. But I really got back to that and was like, "No, actually I am bi and/or queer". And that's when I started using queer  and that it is valid, and that it doesn't have to be attached to like how my body looks? And yeah, so it took a while. [LAUGHTER]

You mentioned that coming out has been part of your experience. What does the term 'coming out' mean to you personally?

I think it's changed. I think it used to mean this one momentous occasion where you would sit the parents down, or whatever it was, and have a conversation about that you were gay, or whatever the term was. And actually, that's changed for me now because I regularly have to come out in all kinds of situations. And I also think there's almost a second coming out experience around being non-binary, because a lot of people don't really know what it means. And also if you present a certain way then people make assumptions about you and whether you want to come out or to say anything in that moment or not. So, I think I thought it was like this one big, momentous thing and actually, now and realising that it's just a constant process, and working out where you feel safe to come out or to actually just fully be yourself. And in what spaces you can't do that.

And when you have come out to people, you mentioned that it's been more of an ongoing process. What sort of responses have you had from people when you have come out?

I think, generally, they've been pretty positive. I really recognise that I've been very lucky. I am definitely very privileged in that my coming out experiences have been generally pretty good. There was a couple about three years ago when I had a really close friend who I was going out for a drink with, and I'd been on a date with someone and happened to disclose that they were a cis women during us talking about the date. And then she literally stopped talking to me, I've never seen her since.  And when I asked her, we were supposed to see each other the next week, and our children were friends and she cancelled. When I said "I'm conscious that since I've said this to you, you've stopped talking to me,” and she was like, "Well, yeah, it was a big shock, but I do still care about you." Even the fact that it was like, "BUT I still like you." And then I've never seen her since. So there's been some situations like that where I've realised actually whilst people maybe didn't openly say anything, they just moved away from me and didn't want to be around me anymore.

I'm sorry to hear that. How did that make you feel when your friend moved away from you like that?

I think it felt really (like) gas lighting, because she denied that that was the reason. But up until that point, we'd see each other every week and everything was great. Literally nothing changed apart from that. And another friend who was friends with this other person also mentioned it to me a few weeks later saying something like, "Oh, I hear that you haven't met up recently? Is everything okay?" And I explained what had happened and she was like, "No, it won't be anything to do with that." It was really gas lighting, that she was kind of saying that the person couldn't possibly be homophobic. And then I also now don't have contact with that person either. It felt like what they tried to do was make me doubt the fact that that was my experience when actually, it was entirely clear that that was what was going on. Because then you couldn't have been anything else. It felt really shit actually at the time and I felt like "Oh, they were people that I really valued." And it felt sad to not have them in my life anymore. But I guess quite soon after I realised, "Well, they're just not my kind of people, would I want to be friends with someone who is queer phobic anyway? No!" Yeah, so it works out well in the end and I realised that there were definitely parts of me, that I couldn't be myself around them. And I think I'm pretty lucky. If that's one of my few experiences, then yeah, I'll take that.

Do you mind my asking when you came out as non-binary?

Yeah. And it's kind of been a gradual process over the last year. So I haven't officially, 'officially', I don't know what official looks like! I haven't come out in a lot of spaces. So in my work, I always use they/them pronouns now. In my private life, my mom knows but doesn't really understand it. My close friends know. And I guess my work often overlaps with my personal life. So there are definitely people that know, but I think in more street spaces, or going down the street, I wouldn't encourage people to use they/them pronouns, because I just think they'd be like, "What the hell are you talking about?" So it's really been about a year and a couple of months. And I did a campaign last year and ended up being in the press for some of it. And, interestingly, Pink News picked it up, as did the Daily Mail. But Pink News picked it up and they described me as a 'woman', and they actually never checked my gender identity. They just said 'woman'. I can't remember (what) the title was, but 'woman something something,' and I remember seeing it and being like, "Oh, that does not feel good to me." And that was probably the first time that I had like a real indication that I was non-binary, rather than "Why does 'women' not fit?" I heard someone say the other day that they always thought that they didn't identify as a woman because they weren't old enough. And when they felt old enough, they would identify as a woman. And actually, what they realised was that it was because they were non-binary, but that term never felt good. But they just thought maybe it was age related or a cultural thing, they didn't really know. But I thought that was really interesting. Actually, hearing someone else describe me as a woman, I was like, "No! That doesn't feel good." Yeah, so not that long.

Do you feel that you're being non-binary is connected to your sexuality? Do you think they are a connected thing or do you think they are a separate thing?

That's a really good question. I want to say no, because I feel like being queer means that. Well, I guess [Audio cuts out] that's a really tricky question. Maybe if you identify as queer, or for me, it removes the need for some labels, or blurs the boundaries of it. So maybe identifying as queer, there's more space to be genderqueer as well. And so potentially, it's almost like the one is a gateway for that other thing. If I hadn't have identified as queer, I wouldn't have got to the space of, "Oh, actually, I don't identify as a woman." Because I think in a very binary sort of context or space, I would never have been like, "Oh, I think there might be another option!" I would have just been in one of the two boxes that you have to choose from. So yeah, I guess so and I guess I've not really thought about it that way before. I've always thought that they're overlapping, but quite different. But I actually think one is the gateway to the next, like experimenting or understanding your sexuality can be a portal for going into understanding your gender as well.

Do you think being a queer, non-binary person affects the responses you had when people learned your sexuality?

Yes, I guess actually, even just using queer instead of bi already indicates that you're different, you don't sort of fit into the same political box as a lot of people. So yeah, maybe just adding non-binary is another marker, just another way that you're different. And I think it can definitely be quite isolating, in that people may be understand what bi means but they don't understand what queer is. And then they also don't understand what being non-binary is. And I'm talking about cis/het people, generally. So I think it does add another layer of like confusion. And because some people don't even realise that the term queer is an identifier. They think it's an old fashioned slur or an insult, so even having to have that conversation, "Yes, that is actually an identity, and it's been reclaimed." And that was what my petition was about before. It's something I've had a lot of conversations about.

Do you feel the gender of the partner you're with at the time someone learns that you're queer, affects the responses they have towards you?

Yeah, I think so. I think you're seen as a bit less threatening if you're queer but you're in a relationship with a cis man. There's something about, "Oh, yeah, we can just ignore that. Because actually you're in a straight relationship so it doesn't matter." And I think it's when I've been in relationships with non-binary or trans folx and or cis women, I've only been in relationship with one cis woman. Yeah, then there's definitely another layer, people can't quite work you out. They can't quite understand where you fit. And I think if there's not that definition between who's the 'femme' and the 'masc' person, people are like [GESTURE TO INDICATES 'MIND BLOWN'] like, "I just, I don't understand. How does this even work?" [LAUGHTER]

So you think people have to feel comfortable putting a gender on it? "You're the man and you're the woman in this relationship?"

I think quite often, yeah. I'm not saying everyone, I'm not saying that I agree with (it) either. But I think in my experience, there tends to be a need to define people in gender roles, "Okay, well, if you're non-binary, are you the feminine one, or are you the masculine one?" And then "Oh, okay, I understand it now." Whereas if it's like both people take the bins out, or if both people do a job that's considered a 'blue' job, then people just don't know what to do with that. I just think it's really weird.

As in ‘blue’ was in the masculine job?

Yeah, they'll talk about blue jobs and pink jobs and the pink jobs are the jobs the cis women would do, and the blue jobs are the jobs that the cis men would do.

Are you aware of any words or phrases or stereotypes that are used against people in the bisexual community?

So things like being indecisive or not knowing what we want. Wanting to experiment, I guess it sounds quite binary. I'm imagining from my point of view, so when (I) identified as a cis woman because hadn't actually thought about it. So if I was bi then it's, "Oh, you just want to test out what having relationship is like with a cis woman but you're not actually gonna stay doing that, you're just gonna go back to having relationship with a cis man." And that kind of flakiness; you're just indecisive. I'm in a group, I can't remember what the group is called, it's a lesbian focused group. And there are quite a lot of talks in there about how bisexual people are predatory in some way. And you'll have friends of the same gender and because you're bi, you're actually fancying them. And that's really immoral, you're trying to be in spaces with them where you're going to 'turn them' or all those kinds of things. And then there's also this idea, lots of people will post saying they've had a date or a relationship with a bisexual person and then it hasn't worked out. And then lots of people who identify as lesbian jumping in like, "Oh, yeah, it happens all the time. They're just trying to experiment; they're not really interested in having a relationship with a gay person." So yeah, there's definitely a lot of stereotyping around being bi, I think. And I guess, the stereotype of being a cis woman who identifies as bi; that you're there for men's pleasure in some way? That it turns a lot of cis men on and that that's why you should engage in it or why you should do it, nothing to do with your own feelings, or your own experience of anything just as a way to interest cis men.

And how about stereotypes or phrases that are used specifically for non-binary queer/ bi/pan people? Are you aware of any that are used for non-binary people who are bi?

Yeah, it feels a bit more complicated I guess. Stereotypes around being 'weird', or I guess it comes with the whole 'snowflake' thing of if you identify as non-binary, then you're just a snowflake. It's political correctness gone too far, because you can't choose a gender or you're saying that two genders don't exist? That's definitely come up quite a lot. And I think even when people are asking, I'm just thinking of Sam Smith, for example. And when they came out (as non) binary and asked for people to use They/them pronouns, how many people refused? And just were like, "No, I will use he/him pronouns for you!" Just because there's that erasure of people dismissing it, and thinking it doesn't even exist. So I guess that ‘snowflake’ (thing) like, "You're so sensitive," but then also, "I just don't believe you. It's not even a thing." And there being something maybe around people that really, "Oh, it's just identity politics, why does everyone have to have a label these days?" And I've seen quite a few of older lesbians talk about how they didn't need that label, they were just a bit masc or, "Why do we need these labels now?" Because they don't make sense, I guess all of this feels like "It's just unnecessary." People feel like it's unnecessary somehow too. "It's too much, you're asking for too much, to use they/them pronouns as well. It's confusing." "You're making a big deal out of what your pronouns should be! It doesn't matter." "When people see you, they make assumptions. And that's what you should put up with." I'm trying think about any others. I think sometimes I've encountered the idea that if you identify as non-binary, thinking about the binary trans community, where you're either a woman or a man. And you're fully expected to really transition to the opposite gender. And there's that kind of idea of like, "Non-binary people are Trans but they just haven't come out yet. Or they just haven't got to that point." I think is that idea of, "It has to be this or this. We can't just be somewhere in the middle, or a mixture of the two things."

Are you aware of the term 'bierasure'? What does that term mean to you?

And I guess in both cis/het communities and in LGBT communities, I guess it's similar to what they're talking about around bi not actually being a valid identity, it's either one thing or the other and maybe that being bi is a 'transitionary period' between 'going to the other side.' And, I think just taking away that as an identity, and it being something that. I guess that's why I felt for a long time that I couldn't really come out because it didn't feel good enough to be, "Oh, I find all genders attractive." It needed to be, "Oh, it's because you haven't decided yet, you need to make a decision, choose one or the other." But I think a lot of people go through that feeling because being bi is erased, it's not really talked about, there's not much history around being bi. Not that there's a huge amount of history around being LGBT, obviously it exists but it's not recorded in the same ways in mainstream cis/het history. I guess within that, recognising that some bi people can have quite a lot of privilege in passing in the straight community. Whilst, obviously, that is a great privilege, it can also be quite bypassing to be, "Oh, well, you're not part of this community, because you could go into a straight community and be completely fine." And so then you end up really feeling like you don't fit in anywhere, you're just straddling lots of different communities. That actually nowhere is, is accepting of you. And I felt that very much after I had come out of a long-term relationship. So, I was married to a cis man for about 12 years from when I was 21. And we were in a relationship when I was 18. And it felt really impossible to break into the queer world. And it was quite 'gatekeepery,' in that I couldn't quite get into it because I had a relationship with a man. And if I had children, there's a lot of childism I think that goes on in queer community. And that was a real big thing for me to be like, "Oh, well, now I've arrived at what my identity is, but I actually can't express it because people are really judgmental of that or think you're not properly queer enough, or you don't have enough experience where you haven't been there from the beginning, since you were a teenager, telling everyone that you're queer so it doesn't count." And I have now quite a few friends, who have, since I've come out, have also come out. And they are in relationships with cis men still and find it really difficult to actually interact with that part of their identity because showing up in queer spaces would potentially be... they'd be judged, or not as welcome, maybe.

If you know you're going to see a bisexual or queer character on stage or on television, or in some kind of media, what do you want to see?

I think what would be really great is just to have bi people existing in the media without any reference to their bisexuality. Just going about their lives, and they maybe happen to have a relationship with (someone)... Depends on the across the timeframe, or what is going on in the piece itself. I think actually just existing is the same, so I do a lot of work around with body liberation stuff and thinking about having a fat character (where) it's completely unrelated to them being fat. They're just a human, going about their life, and really portraying... I can't think of a better word than normal. Hopefully you know what I mean? Yeah, someone actually just having a life, going about their day, who also happened to be bi rather than all of the stereotypes that come with it, or needing to talk about it regularly. Not, that it shouldn't be discussed, but I think it's disappointing when it's a huge part of the plot and it's like a scandal or it's always about coming out. Why can't people just be living their lives and doing the things that happen normally?

Can you think of any positive responses that you've had from people when you have spoken to people?  

Yeah, I guess one was with my mom, which was really cool because she's always known that I was bi. So she's always been aware of that and she's really open minded and stuff. And has had gay relationships herself, although doesn't actively identify as being LGBT. And something that was really cool was when I was explaining being non-binary and she was like, "Oh, yeah, that's me as well." And we talked about it a bit more and actually, what came up was I remember all through childhood, whenever there was a fancy dress party, which was a big thing in the 90’s in our village where people would go to the pub for Halloween, or whatever. And I remember my mom always wanting to dress up as a guy in a suit, or a particular male character. And my Dad was horrified, thought that was just the most embarrassing thing ever and wouldn't be seen with her and would try and discourage her from doing that. But actually, my mom's saying that that's the reason that she wanted that, expressing the more masc side of herself felt really good. And that's the only way that she felt she could, or the only place that she felt she could express it. It was really huge for me just to be like, "Well, that this is actually a thing, rather than you just having these weird feelings." She didn't really understand them. And that felt really special, I think, to be like, "Hey, this is a thing that exists." And she was like, "Oh, yeah, that's me!" And she hasn't talked about it on an ongoing basis. But I think it was just really nice for her to have some reassurance that that was something that other people experienced as well.

And are there any particular spaces or environments where you feel that you can be celebrated in your sexuality in your identity? Where do you feel most welcomed, accepted?

I think actually my work probably, so I work mostly with people making social change sometimes who identify as activists. And they tend to be non-binary and Trans, or at least cis but queer. And there's just this real shared communication, we just respect each other's pronouns. And there isn't this kind of starting level where people have to explain about what the non-binary is or anything. It's just, "Okay, we're going to start here." Whereas in a different place, you might have to start right at the bottom. I went through all this stuff before we can actually get to like a shared understanding. And that feels really important to me. And I think there are some really great queer spaces, particularly at the intersection of queerness, and activism. So fat activist spaces that are queer such as Charlotte Cooper's work, or Scottie, those kinds of people. I always (feel) quite good in those spaces, just surrounded by people, the fact that they follow this person's work, or that they're interested in watching this piece of theatre. And there's a shared understanding. And so, I'd say for me, it's probably not queer spaces alone, it's probably queer fat spaces where I feel the most seen. There's 'Fat Cabaret', I dont know if you know that? Amazing. It's just  the best place ever. So any of those kinds of spaces, it just feels so good to be in a space with other people who feel the same. And there's not that body policing or body shaming that can quite often be present in the queer community as well.

So you mentioned before that, as a younger person, you felt that you couldn't really be bi or anything other than straight because of your body type. So do you feel that (there’s an expectation that) if you're bi then that you meet a certain body standard? Do you feel that it's very prevalent?

Yeah, absolutely. I think as a femme presenting person, I think it's even more important. Well, it's interesting, I say it's even more important, but I know it's really important in the cis gay community as well. So I'm going to talk about it from my experience. The thing that came up for me was if I wasn't attractive to cis men, then I would be in danger. Being in a relationship with a cis woman or someone who's trans or non-binary, there's an expectation that as soon as you step outside of what cis men consider attractive, you're discarded, you don't matter anymore. But also it can be quite a dangerous place to be, I think. Rubyyy Jones talks about this quite a lot, they talk about as soon as they realised they were lesbian and they weren't attractive to men anymore, they were like, "Oh shit, this is a really difficult place to be in." And then also with that, when you realise when you're non-binary then there's another layer. And so I think the further away from the norm you step, whilst in the community with the people that you really connect with, there's less expectation or pressure to conform to whatever the body ideals might be. But outside of that, there is still this pressure. I noticed as a fat femme person, that both of those things were really undesirable in the queer community or in the queer community that I was part of, in the beginning definitely. And if I was more masc, that would have been seen as being more attractive. And if I was thin, so that typical thin, slightly tomboyish person- this is what I gleaned from my first entry in queer community - that's what people are like, "Wow, that's the ideal. That's what everyone should be." And actually, then when you're not that it, becomes quite difficult to find people. And I don't think that's my experience now, because I'm not part of those communities so much. But I can definitely feel that, on dating apps, for example, there is that expectation that you will look and be a certain way.