‘There's a bit of fire and anger associated with being queer’

Pronouns: he / him / they / them

Content warning: None

Names have been changed and redacted to protect anonymity

He/Him, They/Them?

Yeah, I'm having to think about that more recently.

And in terms of your own identity, how do you self-describe?

It really depends who I'm talking to. To straight people I usually just go with bi. They know what that means and I don't have to have a conversation about it. I think of myself as queer, but then sometimes I'll say Pan just because there are people who don't enjoy hearing the word queer. And I don't want to have that argument, in a coffee shop or something.

In terms of your gender identity, do you mind my asking how you self-describe?

Yeah, it's just a difficult question. Male for now. Yeah, definitely been thinking about that a lot more over quarantine.

Thank you so much. And in terms of your own sexuality, you've mentioned that you already have a few different terms that you refer to yourself by. What feels good about those terms for you?

Bi and pan I appreciate because they give enough information that people get what I mean. And It's enough of a bouncing off board to start a conversation. I honestly like queer a little bit because of the bite. Because it's not just a term that identifies something about me, it's also an inherently political term. There's a bit of, like, fire and anger associated with being queer. There’s something that makes me feel powerful as a queer person to see the little flinch. I don't know how else to describe it.

And are there any terms that refer to the 'bi umbrella' that you necessarily disagree with? 

Not that I can think of. Yeah. I mean, for me, bi and pan are both describing very similar or, for some people, the same thing. It's just whichever one feels right in the moment to who I'm speaking to. And because I can't think of any times that I dislike, apart from (inaudible).

And when did you first become aware of your sexuality?   

I was 14 or 15. I think 15. And I think it was a Hank Green video from the Vlogbrothers talking about the Kinsey scale. And I was like: "Huh!" and then I did a Kinsey test. And I lied, and I still came out bi and then I didn't think about it for a year. And then I was at a little gathering with all my friends sitting in the back of a garden. And one of my friends came out as trans and other one came out as gay. And I was like: "Ah, yeah, I'm bi." And the eight or nine of us all came out to one another that night. And that was when I like fully internalised it. There was also a period of time in between those where I was asking all of my friends: "I mean, if you have to be with someone who has the same gender," because you know, everyone thinks about it, where I was still in denial, but I did instantly have an answer to that question.

You mentioned the Kinsey test. Can you tell me a bit about the test?

Yeah, it's pretty much a multiple choice (questionnaire). It's 20 to 100 questions like, depending on how detailed you want the test to be. That's like: "I think about this when I'm looking at men." Or: "These are things I find attractive about women, these are things I find attractive about men." And then based on your answers, it puts you on a one to seven, with zero being asexual, and then one being completely heterosexual and seven being completely homosexual, and then anywhere in the middle being like a little bit bi with, three or four being completely bi.

And you mentioned your friends came out to each other. Has coming out generally been part of your experience to the people around you?

After that I pretty much came out to everyone my age, after that night, I felt comfortable in it. And I told people at school and it was kind of fine. I took a while to come up to my parents. But after that, I was very much like: "I want people to know within five minutes of meeting me." I'm a big fan of badges, my bag has all of these badges along the along that strap. That clearly tell everyone my politics and that I'm not straight, so that I never have to have a conversation.

Do you think that's what coming out is to you? It's wearing a badge proudly?

It's never really been fraught or dangerous for me to come out. I've always been in an environment where I know, even if I'm uncomfortable doing so, that it will be safe for me. So I've always felt able to be confident about it and just state it outright and not have to kind of sidle up to the issue. Apart from I'm from the countryside, and I don't so much wear the badges and wear my big shiny Doc Martens with the rainbow sheen and the gay laces when I'm getting the train home by myself. But to my family, to my friends, to people in school, people I've met personally, I'm very happy to be open all the time instantly. With random football hooligans, maybe we don't need to talk.

And you mentioned very quickly that you'd like people to know within five minutes of meeting you. Why do you think that is for you? Why is it important for you?

I find something that happens with a lot of straight people, maybe not so much now, because I've been doing this for a while, but they'll say something that they might not have realised was homophobic when they when it came out of their mouth. And especially as a bi person who's not gay or straight, they forget. And they'll say something and then I'll have to remind them that there is a queer person in the room and that they should wash their tongue. So being a constant reminder that queerness exists in a straight room stops me having to deal with those things, at least some of the time. I remember in high school, there were a lot of times where someone would say something homophobic and I'd have to be like: "Hey, I'm right here." Especially when I was younger and I... wouldn't say I presented more masculine-ly, but I just didn't put much effort into my appearance. So I was kind of default masculine. Whereas now like I dress and like floral print shirts and roll up jeans and Doc Martens I'm always,' a little bit gay.'

When you have come out to people, have you had any responses from individuals or groups of people when they have learned that you're bi?

The worst response I ever got was I was a house party when I was about 17. And I don't know what they thought they were accomplishing. But, again, this is in the countryside, Norfolk. There was probably like 30-ish people there. Only about 10 of them guys, it was a female friend of mine. All of the men at the party left. All 10 of the guys besides me found out that I might be attracted to men and fucked off.

And they left because they found out you were bi?

Yeah they all left the party. Yeah, I had a great night after that. [LAUGHTER]

Them leaving... How did that make you feel?

Obviously it is quite a while ago now, like five years, but it probably hurt a little bit in the moment, but it was mostly just baffled at that reaction. You know, it's such a strange response to homophobia, they didn't even seem afraid. They just seemed like the party had been ruined for them. I never really understood, it was a very weird time. But I wouldn't have (inaudible) done it because the rest of the night was fine, because it was a bunch of girls who just found out I could be their gay best friend, which is also not really the reaction I want. But was fun in the moment at least.

Would you call that a negative response or would you call that a positive response?

To the gay best friend thing?

To the men leaving and the girls going: "Oh you're my new gay best friend."

The men leaving was definitely a negative response. They were clearly, if not actually grossed out, trying to signal their grossedness to just make me uncomfortable... to be dicks. And then the thing where  straight girls think that I'm that gay best friend is very awkward. Because the first thing is it feels weird, at what point do I explain that? No, I'm still attracted to women, so maybe calm down, but also just that it's clear tokenization and it really bugs me. But it's also because it's like positive discrimination. It's an awkward conversation to have; you have to kind of manage the other person's emotions. Because as much as they are in the wrong, it's not in the kind of way where you want to make them cry about it. I would feel bad if they felt bad. They don't mean to be being horrible, but it is hurtful.

You mentioned they refer to you as a 'gay best friend,' Do you feel that they kind of jumped past bi straight into the gay territory?

Yes.

That they mis-identified you again in that way?

Yeah. There's another story that made me... Oh, god, I'm such an awkward person. When I first started uni, I just moved into halls. And the first da, I'd gone into one of our common rooms to borrow a charger and there was a girl getting changed. So I (was) like: "Oh, God, sorry," and just asked if I could borrow a charger like looking away. And then I left and then the next day, I was walking out into the hallway. And I saw them and they (were) like: "Oh my God, you're so nice for looking away!" which is basic courtesy. I mentioned that I was bi and then she was like: "Oh, so it's fine" and flashed me. And do I correct her? What did she understand? Is she gonna be uncomfortable after I tell her that I do like boobs?  It stressed me out so much, even talking about it now.

That sounds quite stressful. I'd be stressed!  So a mixed bag of reactions then really?

Yeah, all of the other ones have been like grandly positive, very supportive. My mum made me a bracelet when I came out. But those are the interesting ones. Only the other ones were just nice and supportive. All my friends and family were happy. My grandparents came around on gay marriage when they found out that their special boy might not be able to get married.

So besides that they've been kind of mostly positive or neutral?

Yeah, yeah.

Which feel better, the positive of the neutral responses to you? 

I am a fan of someone just being like: "Okay," and then that's it and then we can just move on. Too much applause starts to make me uncomfortable. It's very nice that mum makes me bracelets. When my nan goes into ‘Claire's (Accessories), she's like “have you got anything rainbow? Because my grandson, he's a gay. (Have) you got a rainbow?” She fully does that. I have rainbow bracelets where she's just gone into Claire's for that reason. Which is nice, but also, it's a bit much, you know?

Do you think being a bi sexual of your gender affects the responses you have sometimes?

Yeah, I mean, it’s commonly discussed that bi women are seen as straight and performing and bi men are seen as  gay and faking it. I get that, not so much now because I'm surrounded by queer people and very left people. I don't really associate with the kind of people who are going to be discriminatory to me. But the thing I think of a lot is people talking about 'at least bi', something that comes up with fictional characters when people (are) speculating whether a character's gay or not they're like: "Oh. maybe they're 'at least bi'". As though that's on a gradient to being gay, which is the 'correct choice', you know? It's not as queer as being gay. Which is something that I think is unconsciously on people's minds, manifests maybe in word choices, but isn't something that they say out loud or admit to believing?

When you have been in a relationship, whether it's been a romantic (relationship) or more of a partnership, do you find the gender of the person you're with affects the reactions you get from people when they learn you're bi?

I have never been in a long-term relationship. I've only been with one person. And it was fine, it was good. But I have had people talk to me about how they wouldn't be in a relationship with a bi person, because they can't trust it. They can't trust they will be fine.

And do you mind my asking the gender of the person that you did see for a while? What was their gender?

A female.

When people learn(ed) that you're bi and you (were) with this partner, did that affect how people responded to you, learning you're bi?  

No one I told.

Are you aware of any stereotypes or phrases or words or turns of phrase that people do use when they think of a bisexual person?

Talking about how we're 'indecisive' in more than just terms of our sexuality. There's a joke more in the community than from people outside of how we can't decide anything. Which is funny when I do it, but when other people do it, I don't like it. [LAUGHTER]. I mean, there's the stylistic things of how by people are 'supposed' to look, which I do lean into that. I like the kind of idea of not so much an outfit but like fashion signifiers. I don't know if that's the kind of thing that you're talking about. I do wear loudly patterned shirts, cuffed jeans and Doc Martens and colourful socks, because I want people who are also bi to look at me and be like: "Oh, You're bi!” I like being able to signal  that. I like the idea of cultural signifiers. But the indecisiveness is really the only stereotype I can think of, apart from promiscuous. But I don't I don't really run into that one so much, I don't hear that.

Why do you think people assume that bi people are promiscuous?

I think they assume because there's a wider pool of people to be interested in that that leads to promiscuity. I wonder if it's connected to a Victorian idea or 'fopps', what's the word, Libertines? Men relaxing on chairs and sleeping with anyone and drugs and hedonism. I think there's an aspect of connecting being attracted to anyone, possibly being attracted to anyone with pure hedonism.

And how about in particular to bisexual people of your gender? Be that male/ gender questioning/ non-binary?

Yeah, I mean this is something I worry about internally a lot, maybe I'm faking it to have oppression and then I'll see a hot guy and realise that I was wrong. But when I'm feeling especially anxious, there'll be a part of me is... I am otherwise a white male, I think that's the thing that people worry about a lot... although it hurts, it is on some level of reasonable fear of white guys in queer spaces where it’s like: "Are you?" I don't really know how to articulate that because it's kind of just an unconscious worry of mine.

Do you feel sometimes that you encroach on queer spaces, because you are white male?

Yeah, sometimes. I mean, I went out recently with a bunch of people. Well, not recently, before the pandemic.

Whenever that was!

Years ago, years ago, with a bunch of people from this app, which I guess is a queer dating site that my friend took me along with him. And I mentioned that I'm queer (and) I'm not sure of gender and stuff. And towards the end of the night, about half the people left and it was a bunch of people who, regardless of their gender, were assigned female at birth, and then me. And I found myself edged out of the conversations where I wasn't talking. And there was on some level where I was like: "This is understandable." But also it did hurt as someone who had said: "I'm not sure about my gender, I'm genderfluid maybe," and also just as a queer person in general. Because I have a beard and look like a guy. It did make me feel bad. Yeah, but I argue with myself about it, because I can understand the level of apprehension there. So yeah, I don't know what the solution to it is when I think either solution is going to make both sides at least somewhat uncomfortable.

Are you aware of the term ‘bierasure’?

Yeah.

What does that term mean to you?

The (both media and personal) inclination to erase or ignore the existence of bi people throughout history and now. So many celebrities have openly stated that they're bisexual, historical celebrities, people who are dead now, openly said in interviews that they were bisexual in the 70s. And not only were the people they were talking to disbelieving then, but even now people refuse to believe or choose to forget those people actually were bi/ pan/ queer loudly and openly. And it's infuriating.

If you knew you were going to go see a bisexual character on stage or on film, what would you want to see?

That is an interesting question. I mean, off the top of my head the thing that I want really out of bisexuals in media is, I mean, it's the thing I want out of representation in general, I think is most important. While I think it's important to tell stories about being bisexual, I think the thing that is more important for me as someone who enjoys the more ridiculous aspects of media, like fantasy and sci fi and stuff. I just want there to be queer characters who, in addition to being a wizard, also likes men and women. You know? That's kind of what I want out of it, and for it to not be a big deal and for it to just be mentioned offhand. ‘Oh, yeah, their last girlfriend and their current boyfriend,’ to hear a sentence like that halfway through something would like warm my heart, you know?

Can you give me an example of where you felt your sexuality has been welcomed and accepted?

In addition to like families and stuff, I love pride. I like the feeling of absolute safety, I dress quite flamboyantly now anyway, but  the feeling of safety that comes with being in a crowd of 2000 other queer people and having rainbow paint on my face and waving a big flag that lets everyone know who I am. And feeling completely safe. Also, because I went to London pride for the first time last year, the difference between that and going to pride back home in Norfolk and Norwich, very different. At London Pride, I felt safe all the way home. I went into a Pizza Hut still covered in rainbow glitter, and I felt fine. When you leave Norwich Pride at nine o'clock after being in the big park for ages to get the train home, you put the rainbow flag in the bag; take the stuff off because you walk down a long road that goes past all of the pubs near the football stadium. And one of those years I didn't take it off because I didn't know. I had a sign with me and everything and they didn't do anything, but two guys just followed me down to the station. And then it might have you know.. because they didn't say anything... But it might have been. Yeah. Whereas London feels very safe for me, in that regard.

And are there any other spaces where you feel welcomed and accepted that you don't feel like you need to take it all off?

Home is good. We're all gays here, that's really nice. And then Uni is really good. Being a politics student, we end up talking about queer stuff every once in a while. And it's nice to be able to talk about it and for it to be fine. And everyone's fine with it, there was one guy but everyone shouted at him, so, it was fine. So, he didn't say it directly, it was only afterwards. He was decrying the moral degeneracy of the West. And I wanted him to explain exactly what he meant by that. And when everyone realised what he'd said, he got in trouble. And that's good, I was glad that when everyone realised what he meant by moral degeneracy of the West, it was announced and he got told off for it. Because, yeah, you could say that's fascist.

Moral degeneracy? Wow.

Yeah. So, there's also a couple of bars. I don't drink, I don't really like loud music. But there's a couple of places; there's a theatre bar. I mean, you probably know the Old Red Lion? Some of my friends have put on performances there. Despite being a pub with a football on that sells pies, I feel very comfortable there. Yeah, that's a really nice space. And then there's one near Kings Cross that's called the Apple Tree, or something? Yeah, it's a really nice queer space. They do  drag shows there and comedy shows that my friend has been in. So yeah, that's a really nice space to be (in).