“I feel so lucky to be bisexual”

She/Her    

Pronouns? I say she/her. I think. I strongly identify with that. I haven't given it much thought. I know it's a bit on brand at the moment, and I totally respect anyone that asks me, but yeah, she/her. 

And in terms of your own gender identity, and sexuality, how do you self-describe?

I definitely identify as a female. I'm openly bisexual, I've had relationships with both men and women. And it's something that I get asked about a lot, and I'm quite happy to discuss it with people. But I think as I've gotten older, I've been mindful about how I have that conversation, and who's entitled to that story. I think that's in relationships in general. But I think people struggle with bisexuality in terms of what it means in their own understanding. Part of me is torn between wanting to challenge people to think outside the box, but the other part of me is like, "I don't need to explain my choices to you, you'll see my preference by who I'm introducing you to, like, who's in my life, and who's my person and who's important to me. And if you have any questions, we'll cross it then." But I think on a, kind of, again, it depends on talking to you. But I would say, it's easier sometimes to just say "I am bisexual," but I don't always identify with giving myself that label. As I said, I think you'll know my preference by seeing either who I'm dating, or who I, you know, may make a comment on, or the films I watch, or the content I engage in. And I think the people closest to me get that, whether they're straight or gay, or, in or out of the community, get that. It's usually the people that aren't in my close circle or immediate circle that maybe don't quite understand that. And I have to explain myself a bit more. So yeah, for society's sake, I am bisexual based on my history of dating both men and women. But I don't kind of feel attached to that label. I am [REDACT] and if I like you, and you happen to be a woman; great, we're gonna have a great time. If I like you, and you happen to be a man; amazing, we're gonna have a great time. So, it's about the person. And it's, I feel so lucky to be bisexual. And I think as a person in their 30’s, I've just come into that as seeing it as something that is powerful and positive, and something to be proud of, rather than a frustration. I think I was frustrated with it for a long time, and I'm no longer frustrated. -unless you're straight and trying to get into me.

Why do you think you were frustrated? Do you mind my asking?

I was frustrated, I think because I was more concerned about what other people thought about me. And I needed to let that go, which comes with growth. And I was frustrated because I would continually attract people that wanted to have a 'bi experience', and who hadn't done any work around their own sexuality. And I was continuing to attract people that were attracted to me, but they didn't know who they were or what they wanted. And I was falling into positions where I was getting hurt, because I was hoping that by them being with me, or them spending time in a same sex relationship, for example, that they would come around or choose me. And more often than not, that didn't happen. And I think most either lesbian or bisexual people will tell you that that's a unique pain, unlike anything that I can pinpoint. So, for me, it was frustrating because I wasn't... I guess it comes back to being boundaried and just taking my clarity to a new level. Now after my last relationship. I'm now in a position where I now know that if you're a female, I cannot date you or engage with you if you have not done some work around your sexuality and if you've not done some work around relationships and healing your own stuff. But just kind of understanding that, you know, it's a process, we have to get to know each other. But the foundation of that has to be that you've been with a woman or you know that you're attracted to women, or it's not something that's scary and new. It's something that you are comfortable with and that you're okay with.  I've been the 'secret' as well. And that's not nice. Where people don't know how to introduce you, or they haven't come out to certain people. And me being me, I'm so accommodating to that because I understand the journey. But I think at this stage in my life, and the age that I'm at, and the experience that I've had, I can't really be that vessel for you, if that makes sense? And so, for me, what I'm always looking for is someone that comes with an understanding of this is "Who I am," you know, "I'm open about this, and I would like to get to know you." But from that position of "I'm either gay or I am attracted to women. And I'm open about that. It's not something I'm weird about." So, I think my frustration was coming from my own lack of being boundaried and saying "This is what I demand." And kind of almost being whimsical and naive and hoping that because I was a lovely person, or a great partner or I was stable, or I knew who I was that that was enough. And so that veers off a bit of the bisexuality (discussion) and relationships in general, you need to work on yourself, which a lot of people will struggle to do, because it's not always easy work. But your relationship will be better when that comes from a place of honesty. And that's something that I've learned. And I kind of look for that in other partners, but especially dating other women. with men, it's been less of an issue, men seem to be a bit more clear on that front. They have their own things as we know. [LAUGHTER] That was a long winded answer.

No, it's a perfect answer. I loved it. And you mentioned that you use the term 'bisexual', but in terms of only when …the label is required? 

Yes. …like filling out a form.

In this project, we're using 'bisexual' as  the umbrella term; for people who identify as bisexual, but (also) for people who identify as queer or pansexual, or whatever term people want to assign to themselves. 

Yeah. it's more relatable for everyone.

People are more likely to understand what bisexual means than pansexual, for example.    

Yeah, I mean, I'm the first to say, I'm not familiar with all the terms. I know, roughly, like 'fluid'... And I just try and respect how other people want to be identified. And if I'm not sure I ask. That's all you can do. Like the way we're having this dialogue now, you're asking. And I think if we as people can take that responsibility to share and not be offended by someone asking, which I know some people do, which is their right. But when people ask a question, providing they ask it from a place of love and actual genuine curiosity and not from a malicious place or gratuitous place, then that's an opportunity for you to say, "This is how I like to be, you know, approached." It's like I don't mind being referred to as a person of colour, whereas I have some black friends that absolutely do not refer to them as (that), they are Black. They are Black, not a person of colour, they are Black, or some people like the term B.A.M.E. I have no problem with that name. But some people hate that. So, it's about identifying with it individually. But yeah, go back to the pronouns sorry? The terms? 

Do you find some terms you don't necessarily like or that you don't resonate with for any, any reason?

Again, I think it also depends on the term, who's saying it in what context. I mean, for me personally,  I do choose, for safety's sake and for clarity, to refer to myself as bisexual. As I said, this will be if I'm applying for a job, that's the box that best describes me. And I'm comfortable in that territory. And so yeah, but as I said, You know, I think the only time I've kind of not really identified so much is when someone asked me "So, you know, as a 'dyke', how do you feel?" And I was like, "Ooh." I mean, it's a very used term, but that just didn't resonate with me. And I felt something to it. And it wasn't a resistance to having relationships with women, it was just a term that I didn't refer to. And that was said to me by a family member, again with love. But I just had to call that very gently and just say, "That's not a term that I prefer to resonate with or use". 'Queer' I don't mind so much. I wouldn't describe myself as queer. But in conversation, I might say, you know, it's great seeing all the exposure for queer people, I might say it in that context. But I wouldn't describe myself as queer. I'm just respectful of the words. So yeah, I say, yeah, "I'm ]REDACT], I'm openly bi, or I'm openly bisexual." To me, just saying those words feels super comfortable and super normal, because I say it all the time. But I wouldn't say: I'm pan, I'm fluid or anything like that. Because sometimes, again, depending on who you're saying it to, it opens up a whole can of worms. And if you're using terms that people aren't familiar with, you open yourself up to more questions. And if you don't want to have that conversation, it's better to just say, "I'm bi," and then people can get in their little heads: "Okay, that means you like both men and women." And then the conversation usually doesn't go too much further, unless they're super curious.

And you said before that you felt very lucky to be bisexual. Why do you feel lucky?    

Because I think it really opens me up to focusing on people and seeing people for who they are and seeing the soul. I have long let go of the idea of worrying what other people think about bisexual people. We are not super spreaders, we are not promiscuous, we are not greedy. We're not undecided. I say 'we.' Technically I shouldn't say 'we,' I should only speak from my own experience, I am genuinely bisexual. For me it is not a stepping stone to coming out. I don't feel called to come out. As I said, you'll see who I'm dating with my relationship choices. But I see it as something to be proud about. Because it means that I'm open to everybody. I'm open to people's humanity. And I think that blows some people's minds. And that's cool, doesn't blow my mind, you know? I have amazing times with both men and women. And I think if you're not proud about it, what are you? But you have to come into that, I think you have to grow into that. I wouldn't say I was always proud. As I said, initially, I think I found frustrations. But I think that came to a point of me wanting to or thinking I needed to be something that I wasn't or focusing, sometimes, the downsides of it, which can be considered isolated. Or you're constantly not sure if somebody else is bi or you're not sure, there are challenges with it. And I think once you stop focusing on that, it's like anything. If you stop focusing on the negative, or what isn't working, or all the things that can be difficult with it, and start focusing on "Well, hey, this means that this or this means that or this means these opportunities..." it kind of just opens things up a bit more for you. And it's the same as I said, with being Black, you know, there's a load of challenges that come with that. But if I really want to focus on all the negative things that sometimes come with being Black, it's going to be a really dark, lonely, sad place. It's not ignoring, its acknowledging, but it's choosing to kind of go "You know what, I love it." But as I said, that's something I had to grow into. It's not something that I felt in my teens, it is not something I felt in my 20's. I grew up in New Zealand, an amazing place just to [Inaudible] - whoop, but I was the ‘token’, you know? And I didn't feel comfortable until I moved to London in 2013. And really saw other people like me, I had other Black friends and I felt comfortable. Then I was happy to have my natural hair without any weird questions, happy to have braids, and it's just accepted. Wear bright colours, eat, listen to music, whatever. And that's when I kind of embraced it. And it's the same with my sexuality. That's the thing I love about London. I will just say that London is great for that. Whereas other countries, maybe not so, and other cities, sorry, may not be so great at that. London is pretty inclusive, they've got their shit, you know. Oooh sorry! Edit that out. They've got their own things. 

I'm going to be swearing the entire time. Don't worry. [LAUGHTER]    

Excellent! But I would say for me London helped me to grow both in my ethnicity as a Black woman but also my sexuality, because I was able to see within my community more people like me and that's when you can kind of be proud about it, because you're not on your own anymore. There's other people. If I said "I'm bi" in London, people are like "Yeah, and?" Whereas if I say it in New Zealand… New Zealand, it's amazing and much more progressive than Australia. But I felt a novelty. I felt unusual and I felt like I had to overcompensate and that kind of persona, that energy that I was emitting all the time has kind of gone now.  And it's gone to better places, and I'm much more settled. And I guess also being older, I'm able to kind of sometimes say, "I'm not going to talk about that." And it's not from a place of I'm embarrassed or ashamed. It's just,I don't know, you and I don't need to discuss this side of my life with you. It's from that perspective rather than "Oh, you might not understand." You know what I mean? So, I'm 100% proud of it. But I think it was a choice to kind of be comfortable in my skin, which helped by moving to London and being in a safe space. But also, just age as well, and having mature relationships and being open about it. Anytime it's a secret, it's just weird. It's not healthy, you know. So the more you can be open and be supported, which unfortunately, not everyone is. And so I appreciate that this is my experience, and I'm so clear on that, this isn't everybody's experience. And that's another reason why I think I'm proud. My family is super liberal. You know, they never know when I'm bringing a girl home or a boy home and they're just like "Come in, we've got some food and make yourself at home!" And I'm like, "Mum, they don't care. Come to my bedroom." [LAUGHTER] It's okay, you know? It's okay. It's really, really okay. It's not a big deal. And I just wish that more people could be held and have space held for who they are. Because life's short, man. Literally. You don't have time to be hiding, you know?

Yeah. Amazing.     

Long winded.

No, I loved it. It was great.    

And that's only question 3, shit! 

It's all good! (Jokes) And that was the interview! Thank you very much. Ah no, I'm kidding. And, do you mind me asking, when did you first become aware that you were bisexual?

For some reason 14 (years old) is coming up to me. Again, it's tricky because teenagers, you know, we're all horny, and we just want a bit of everything. And so it was quite hard to understand. But I think it was basically when I had physical and sexual attractions to a couple of people at my school, I went to an all-girls school, but I was on the track team. And I did a lot of typically masculine sports. So, I had a lot of guy friends, and I was attracted to some of them too. But I was also attracted to a couple of people in my class. And you know, as teenagers, you kind of fool around. I mean, I actually didn't have sex until I was 22. And whilst I had boyfriends through high school, I'd never had a girlfriend before. I'd snogged a girl, I mean, who hasn't? I went to drama school, mate. But my experience through high school was mainly having boyfriends and the odd snog with a girl, ‘hehehehe!’ when you're playing doctors and nurses. And then, when I was at drama school, when I was at 19, I had a brief relationship with a girl at drama school who was straight. And we had a thing, and I was with her before I had been with a guy. So, there was an element of curiosity for me, in terms of 'what's it like to be with a man?' I knew that there was something there that I needed to explore and she had been with men. Many men. Bless her. But yeah, we engaged for about six months, and it was probably one of my first relationships of sorts. It was serious, but then it was really a friendship. We weren't on the same page with what we wanted. And we were both quite young, you know? But yeah, I would say 14 was when I first started to go, "Oh, ah, ooh. Ah!" to both men and women. But it was never a conversation I had with my parents at that age. And as I said, I've never really felt the need to come out. I have the ‘conversation’ with people regularly. But I think my parents just saw me bringing people home. I just said, "Mom and Dad, I'm seeing this amazing woman." Or "I'm seeing this amazing guy at the moment." I would say, at the moment, because the last three people I've engaged with have been female. I had a few more questions like, "Are you sure this is... because I haven't seen a guy in a while. What's going on?" But it doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like: ‘man, woman, man,’ it doesn't. There's no patterning to it. It's who comes across your life and who you need to learn from. The partners that I've had in the past have taught me some pretty full-on lessons. Some really good, some really painful ones. Thanks, straight girls!  [LAUGHTER] Edit that out. No, jokes. But that shit hurts, like really badly. Yeah, I think you will see who I'm with. And you will see who's in my life when you meet them. But yeah, I would say 14 was the time that I was like, "Ooh!" And then 19 to 21 (years old), I had a serious thing with a girl. And then I kind of dabbled with the dudes. And then I went back to the chicks. And now I'm totally single. You better take me some places you. You know what I'm saying? [LAUGHTER] You're gonna regret asking me to interview aren't you?  

 Amazing. Thank you. And so you said that coming out really hasn't been part of your experience. That it's not been an ‘event’ for you, but more of a thing that gets put into the conversation almost?  

Yeah, yeah.

So the term 'coming out', what does that term mean to you?

As I said, because I haven't done it, the term, in all honesty, doesn't mean a lot for me. But I appreciate that for some people, it's a truth moment, it's a sharing moment, it's a moment for them to finally say who they are. Again, I can only speak from my own experience, I have a very loving and supportive family when it comes to my choices and my relationship choices. For example, they've been much happier with the relationships I've had and the choices I've made versus, say, my sister, for example. They've never been really concerned about the people that I've had in my life. Sure, they've seen me heartbroken. Pain is unavoidable when you're experiencing relationships for the first time and all that stuff. But in terms of coming out, I think it's so personal, and all I can really say on that is I've never felt the need to. And there's something really kind of peaceful about that. I don't feel like I need to be someone or say something or tick any boxes. I'm just like, "This is who I'm seeing." And they've been welcomed, providing that they're not causing me pain, or you know, they're not a bad person. And my parents will always treat you as part of family and welcome you in. And so again, that's where the pride comes from. I'm very lucky to have that. Because I know that's not everyone's experience. So, from that perspective, I've never needed to go:  "Mom and dad, I've got a girlfriend." Because even if I did, they'd be like: "Yeah, we know." They’d just be like: "Just come inside, you're letting the draft in, close the door." [LAUGHTER] It's not a big thing. So, I've never felt the need to, yeah. I think that's all I can say on that. I just turn up. And if I'm in a relationship with someone, and I'm at a stage where I feel it's appropriate to introduce them to the wider collective of my family, I will do so. And if not, I might say, "Mum and Dad, I'm seeing someone, I'll let you know how things go." But I think that comes down to just age as well. And just having a bit of respect for your own privacy and your own boundaries on relationships. But yeah, I've never felt the need to come out. My friends know it as well because they're in my circle. So I try and live as openly as I can, but with boundaries. I don't extend that to just random strangers. You know, that's a whole other question, getting stopped on the street. Another question would also be the interracial, because I've only ever dated white people. And that also opens up a whole can of worms. Partly, I think living in predominantly white countries, New Zealand and I lived in England until I was 11. I lived in Brighton. And coupled with the fact that I was adopted from Jamaica, but white Jamaicans, so my entire family is White. But my mom's side is from Jamaica. They're White Jamaicans and my dad's side is English, he's from Sheffield. So I'm the only actual black person in my family. [LAUGHTER] So I think you know, my exposure to other people like myself, or people of colour, was quite limited for some time. With that in mind, I've only had relationships with white people and, in addition to being bi, if I'm then dating a white female that just blows people's minds completely. And it's too many boxes that they're just like, "What do your parents think?!" I'm like "Babes, they don't care. They're white too." [LAUGHTER] They just don't care! But you get the looks, you know. And it's not nice to feel like you can't walk down the street hand in hand with the person that means so much to you. But sometimes we do it to avoid the nonsense, especially if you go out clubbing. Like at home, I chill. But when I go out, I do sometimes wear heels and makeup and nice clothes. And so sometimes if you're dating another quite feminine looking woman, you attract quite a lot of male attention because they can pick up on that energy because it's a unique energy. And so, you're constantly having to go "No! No threesomes No! You are not welcome!" So that's kind of a bit annoying. But again, I don't focus on that. With age I've just gotten more confident in just being like, "Thank you, but no, thank you." They're like: "Are you sure?" I'm like: "So sure. We're really sure. We don't need a penis tonight. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, thank you. I'm sure it's beautiful. It's not welcome." [LAUGHTER] 

So when you have spoken to people about it, what kind of responses have you had from people? Have you had any responses from people? Either positive or negative or neutral? 

When they find out I'm bi? 

Yeah.  

I mean, most people are like, "Wow, that's so awesome." And, you know, the right people will be interested for the right reasons. And they will, like yourself, have really open questions and be really kind of interested and hold space for you to answer those questions. And then some people will be like, "Ah, that's such a waste." And you're like "Is it? Is it a waste? I'm not sure how that works? But okay, you do you." Again, typically, guys trying to sway you or not believe you. Or say you don't look like you'd be bi. Or "I wouldn't expect that from you." I've had someone ask me if it's exhausting. To which I said no, at times, obviously. [LAUGHTER] But yeah, I think in London, most people are pretty chill about it. Unfortunately, the small towns in New Zealand, or people that haven't quite expanded the old mind will have limited questions. And again, I think I had more of an issue when I was younger. I didn't know how to answer those questions, I felt obliged to answer them. And really, you know, my higher self or my mature self now knows to call time on that, if I don't feel comfortable. So, I would sometimes get myself into answering either gratuitous questions about sex. Or, you know, pornography, or pictures or any of that sort of stuff. I'd find myself down a rabbit hole of having to answer questions that really wasn't my job to answer, and someone actually had no right to ask me. Especially if they're just in a club, or at work, which is unprofessional, or whatever setting. But I think what's helped me is age and maturity and respect for myself. (That) has been huge in terms of just protecting my peace. And as I said, I'm proud about who I am. And I'm happy to share that with the right people. So, I think for me, I've had less negative responses, the more I stand in my truth, and the more I focus on being authentic and being truthful to the right people. And just not engaging in nonsense, you know?  You know, when someone's wasting your time, or they just want to know something to get off, or they want to see you squirm, I just don't engage. I don't engage. So, yeah, for the most part, it's been good. Some people, most people are just: "Ahh, cool." The right people, it doesn't even come up. Do you know what I mean? They don't even see my sexuality. Some people might ask, they're like "Oh, um." Some people might ask if I'm a lesbian, especially because of my short hair. Because I'm quite athletic, some people will ask, and then I'll say, you know, "Actually, I date both men and women." That's the other thing I'll say, I do identify as bi, but my kind of phrase would be: "I openly date men and women" or "I'm openly attracted to men and women."  That's kind of my corrective phrase. But I've had people say, "I'm getting some serious gay vibes from you." I'm like "Cool." You know, it's all how you respond. If you try and get defensive about it, or if you try and let it get under your skin, it's just making that choice, you know? So, I try and choose not to let stuff like that get under my skin, which has been really helpful for me. Yeah.  Long winded answer!

No, perfect answer! I loved it. The gratuitous questions, (that) you feel that you've been asked by people, how did they make you feel?   

Initially, just again, that frustration, and just kind of like, ‘why’? I am not interested in my friends' relationships on a sexual level, what they choose to do in the bedroom is up to them. And you kind of just be(come) like an object. People's limited understanding of bisexuality, bisexuality as 'threesomes' or this heightened sexuality, which for a lot of people, it's not. Some people are super private about it. I've literally had two one nightstands in my entire life, and they were friends. So, I don't even know if that counts. But I'm not highly promiscuous. Me liking both men and women doesn't make me any different to you just liking one gender. But what I tend to find, again, is that if people are asking those sorts of questions, nothing you say, unless it's to do with Pornhub, is going to satisfy their needs. So, you know, they're asking those questions wanting a very specific kind of answer. And I choose now, again, as an older person, to not engage in that level. When I was younger, it would make me feel embarrassed, it would make me feel like if I didn't have something cool to say, then bisexuality maybe wasn't that cool. It was just crazy, but again, you're trying to fulfil somebody else's idea of what you are and what your sexuality is to you. I think, yes, there's an umbrella term of bisexuality and what that actually means, but for the individual, it means so much more. So, my experience as you'll know, through these interviews, my experience of bisexuality will be different to somebody else's. There'll be crossovers, there'll be similarities, that's fine. But with different people... so how we practise bisexuality, or how we embrace our bisexuality, it's going to be tailored to us and our needs and who we are, our pathology. So, it used to make me feel objectified. It used to make me feel slutty, when I never identified as that. And it used to make me feel like I have to kind of hype it up, if I didn't have a cool story to add. Because usually the next question would be "So how many threesomes have you had?" We kind of go down that route. Or "Do you prefer men or women, or give us a ratio? Is it..." Oh, god, I'm going to show my maths up now. But you know, I can't give you a ratio. It doesn't work like that. And again, if someone's asking that line of questioning, you trying to counter that and offer a practical, realistic answer, that's not what they're looking for, you know? That's not the level that they're able to engage on. So now, if that comes up, I don't even allow it. Back in the day, I'd contort myself into a pretzel answering these nonsense questions from grotty either teenagers or men in their 20’s. Or even older men who really should know better, but probably haven't had the relationship experience and again, just probably spend more time online than they should. And have their own perception of what bisexuality is. It is not that. Or not my experience of it.

This perception of bisexuality that some people have, do you think that it is created by the porn industry, the media industry? What people are fed when they watch (that) stuff? Do you think that's the short answer for it?

I think that there'd definitely be an element to that. I think they'll definitely be an element of society projecting it in a certain way. That's why I think it's up to us as bisexual people to really educate (people) and show the very different sides of bisexuality. If you are bisexual and you're highly active, and in the adult entertainment industry, that is fine. But here's also another bisexual person that is in a monogamous relationship, that has adopted children, or whatever. And, you know, there's a range. So, I think it's our duty to show people who we are authentically, to show that range, so that people don't just get stuck in this one idea of (bisexuality). It's like anything, there's millions of different types of gay couples, there's many different types of heterosexual couples. And so, I think we owe it to ourselves, but we do have a duty to be truthful in who we are. To show that and to challenge that. But yeah, I think certain industries probably promote it in a not safe way. But I think there's a wider conversation happening to stop that. Even the work that you're doing now, is a small step. But that spreads, because how many people are going to see this and go away thinking something different? And then go on to talk about the show that they see... where ‘this’ happened, and ‘that’ happened. And "Oh, that's different," and get that conversation started? That's how it changes. Is it going to happen overnight? No, not really. But you have to kind of start somewhere. I think it's up to the way we represent ourselves and allow ourselves to be represented. So, for example, you being really clear on boundaries for the interview means that we feel safe to discuss things that are right for us. And that means we're being represented in the way that we feel comfortable, and there's no kind of imbalance there. So, it starts in that way, you know? 

You've already touched on this, and I just wanted to explore it a little bit more and get your opinion on it. Do you think being a bisexual woman has affected the responses you've had? Or even (being) a bisexual Black woman has affected the responses you've had from people, when they've learnt you're bi?

In fact, more and more increasingly, I would say no. I would say in London it's been a lot better. I would say the people that I choose to spend my time with, who are inclusive people like [READACT], who are making work for people of all different walks of life. Being part of those opportunities and attaching myself to people who are willing to make changes and actually do things healthily and openly, has been really helpful. And so, I feel like now is a really rich time. I've never been so busy in my life as an actor. And a lot of what I'm seeing is "We want queer, we want bisexual, we want Black, we want..." So, people are now asking for people that look like me. And it's a really great time to be able to lean in and go "Yes!" [LAUGHTER] So I think now, I like to kind of try and keep us as current as I can. I would say being Black and bisexual right now is working in my favour. So, I'm much more open to having these sorts of conversations, going for certain auditions. Literally, I've been talking to a couple of casting directors and they want to get information on my experiences as well, to make sure they're casting things right. So I feel like there's an awareness, which is all we need. The whole reason why the world is in this funk in the first place is a lack of awareness. But that's a whole another interview. But I think for me, personally, I feel like it's a really rich time. [LAUGHTER] No, but I think it's just a really rich time. And I've noticed a shift, particularly in lockdown. I don't know if you've noticed advertising has been much more diverse. 

It's been great, yeah. 

Everything is wanting: 'everyday people of all shapes and sizes of all different ages', because that's a whole other thing. You know, people who are either bisexual, or gay of an older demographic are getting excluded. That's unacceptable. We need our older citizens to be represented on screen. So, I feel like there's so much shifting right now. You would do yourself a disservice if you weren't to be yourself. So for me right now, it's positive to be Black, female and bisexual. As an actor, as a creative living in London. I'm sure that can be said in other places as well. But as I said, I can only talk from my experience. So right now it feels super positive. No negatives of it at the moment. Everything is good.  Apart from that I'm single, which is also good! Self-love. But I'm just saying. The biological clock doth tick! [LAUGHTER]

Tier 2 is not helping! [LAUGHTER]    

I'm getting houseplants, I'm talking to my house plants. That's how bad it's getting. They're so addictive. 

So we've talked about how your gender affects the responses you've got. When you've had partners in the past, whatever gender they've been, do you think that their gender has affected what responses you've got from people? 

It's really hard because, obviously, I grew up in New Zealand. So, I lived in New Zealand till I was 29. And I did have two girlfriends in New Zealand. I've had one girlfriend here in London, I would say, and I've had a couple of boyfriends in New Zealand, and I’ve  sort of been seeing a guy in London, but it didn't go anywhere. But I would say it's easier on the eye, when people see a heterosexual couple holding hands. And I mean, no one wants to see anyone snogging. Whether you're gay or straight, no one wants to see that shoved in their face. But if I was out on a date with a guy: "Oh, I shouldn't do this. Or is anyone watching before I do this?" Whereas, if I'm with a girl,I’m  very aware of it. And, I'm going to be honest, I've dated some hot chicks. I've been very lucky. And, you don't always look gay, we don't always look like we're in a relationship. And so, you just get a bit more of the nonsense. You get more approached. I've been more approached when I've been with a girl. The most I probably do in public, unless I was in a safe space like a gay club, the most I would do is hold hands and maybe kiss on the cheek. I'm not averse to PDA, I think you need to keep it in check. But I'm much more comfortable, I don't even think about it when I'm with a guy because for some reason, it's just that ingrained thing of "Oh, this is normal." When even though when I'm with a woman, it's normal for me. And I would be lying, or I wouldn't be being truthful, if I was saying that there wasn't an element of, I don't want to say fear because it's not quite fear, but awareness. "Oh, maybe I shouldn't do that. Or what if…?" I second guess myself, I check my surroundings are safe before I would do something like even a kiss on the cheek. But that's probably as far as I'd go with a girl. So that's kind of annoying. I see some people just doing it really openly. And I know that they'll probably get some stuff. You know, I've mainly seen it in certain areas. So maybe there's certain areas of London. Like I was in Camberwell when I was, funnily enough, getting my houseplants. Lesbians everywhere holding hands, covered in tattoos and just living. I saw it a lot. So, I was like: "Ah!" Maybe in a place where it's seen a lot more, it's a lot more acceptable, and not such a kind of eyesore for people who are bigoted. But where I've been, I haven't seen myself always represented. So, I haven't felt as safe to do that. But when I'm with a guy, obviously, I don't even think about it. So, I'd like that to kind of go away. Again, maybe that might go away as I get older, (I’m) constantly shifting in my confidence levels. But yeah, it would be dishonest to say that I didn't check that the coast was clear before maybe kissing my partner on the cheek if it's a female. Holding hands I do because, again, girls sometimes hold hands, and maybe no one's gonna (approach us). But it's not a nice feeling, you know? And then I think my situation has been a bit unique. And sometimes I've been with people who, as I said in my earlier comment, who have maybe not been even comfortable with their sexuality themselves. And so, they also don't want to do stuff. So, I think next time it would be nice to be with someone who is as comfortable as me, which is what I'm working towards. So that I'm not checking from a societal level, but also checking from a 'are you ok?' level. You know. I think obviously, you always check with people and make sure they're okay. But do you get what I mean by that?

I totally do.

If you're not comfortable. If you're not 'out', or if you're not comfortable with your sexuality yet, you're behind closed doors. I don't want to be in a bisexual relationship in my apartment, but then as soon as we set foot out the door, we're just ‘friends’, because that's exhausting. And I've been that and that's where the pain sets in. Especially when they break up with you and then try and come back into your life. Also that's really extended. I think of all places, I feel safest in London. Even though New Zealand's my home and it's a beautiful country and it's very inclusive. I think maybe now that I'm older, if I went back and I was in a relationship, I'd feel different. Especially in the bigger cities like Wellington; super artsy and super hip. But in the smaller towns, you would get stared at, not just for the Black and White , you know, but same sex (couples), you'd get a few looks. 

Thank you. In general, are you aware of any words or phrases or stereotypes that are associated with bisexual people? 

Other than what I briefly touched on before is this notion that bisexual people 'don't know what they want,' or  they're 'greedy' or 'promiscuous'.  Again, I choose not to typically engage with it. But I know there's a lot more jokes around bi people. And there's a lack of understanding, I guess, on what it really means to be bisexual. And so, I think people just go by either what society says or what they've seen on TV or their limited experience. I mean, if I asked my straight friends "How many bisexual people do you know?" They'll probably just say "You, babes. Just you." You know? So that kind of gives you a perspective of people's understanding. But in terms of (stereotypes)... not really, I would say. Yeah, nothing comes to mind at this time. But I do know that there's been some kind of odd kind of stigma around. "Oh, you can't be trusted." That's another one: "you never know, can't be trusted." Actually, I'm very trustworthy. I've never cheated in my life. Bisexual people don't necessarily want to have polyamorous relationships. But I can only talk from my experience, you know? You could talk to other people that have been with bi people and have been really fucked over and whatever. But that could be because that person hasn't sorted out their wounds, or they haven't figured out what they want. You know, it's quite a big range, really. But I've been quite lucky in the sense that I haven't really had too much terminology slung my way.

What do you understand by the term 'bi erasure'? 

Bi erasure? 

I'm just curious to see if people have heard the word, what they think it means. What they associate it with.   

I've heard of it. But I'm going to be honest and say I don't really know what it means, apart from hearing it used in Twitter comments and Twitter beef. If I really was to think about it, is it a disregard for the bisexual experience, or not including bisexual people as part of the LGBT community? And not seeing their choice as a recognised identity? Is it just skimming over the surface of who they are? Like, as bi people, we need to be visible and seen as bi people without just being a letter in between a whole bunch of other letters in the acronym? I don't know. Oh my god.  

I think that's exactly it. The 'invisible B', I've heard it called that before. Like 'LG {space} TQ' [LAUGHTER]. Yeah, the experience you have when people just go: "No, you're just on your way to being gay, aren't you?" Or "it's just a phase." That basic idea.

I also think that some people do. Obviously, it needs to be from a healthy place. I'm very conscious of how I phrase this. But if some people do want to use it as a stepping stone, because it's easier for them to have that space to figure out who they are. And that's the pathway they want to take, so long as it's not from a place of avoidance or denial, then I think that's okay. The same way that I think bi curiosity is okay. You don't know unless you try. My thing is I personally don't want to be with anyone who doesn't know, because I've done that a few times now, and it doesn't work in my favour. It has never worked in my favour. So bi curiosity? 100%. If you need to say, "I'm bisexual, I'm still kind of figuring it out, but I think I might be bisexual." That's okay. And then if you later say, "You know what, I've dated both and I think I might actually prefer one gender." Or "You know what? I think I'm straight. You know, it's been great, really great. But I think this is who I am." I think that's okay. I think what people need to realise is that it's so individual, and it's open to change. And if people want to change their mind, then that is okay. Who are you to tell somebody else who they should or shouldn't be? Providing you're not hurting other people or lying to yourself, which is detrimental obviously. I think how you choose to represent your sexuality, in a safe, healthy way is completely up to you. But yeah, I think in terms of bi erasure, I think it's something that people need to be mindful of. Because we exist, you know? It's not something that's going to go away. It's been around for thousands of years. I mean, bloody hell!

Bloody hell!

Bloody hell! 

I'm interested in people's idea of representation of bisexuality in the media and pop culture. And so, if you were on your way to a theatre, or to watch a film or a show, and you knew there was going to be a bisexual character in there, what would you want to see?

I would want to see the truth From that character's perspective.And by that, I mean you don't have to be talking about bisexuality. There's two ways, depending on how you ask that question, is it an actor who's bisexual that's been cast, or as a character in the show that is bisexual? Just to get clarification on what's the question?

I would say a character, as in someone has written a character that is bisexual, and that it's going to be in the show, what would you want to see?

Cool. Thank you for clarifying that. I would want to see the character's whole story and here's why: bisexuality is a tiny, tiny part of who they are. So, touch on it, by all means, touch on it. But don't make it all about that. I want to see who this person is. If bisexuality, for whatever reason, has influenced their story and led them to meet someone or led them to inspire someone, or it's somehow integrated in a way that needs to be bigger than just their sexuality, then I'm open to that. But if it's just a show about someone who's gone through loads of different relationships, they're trying to figure out who they are... I think in 2020, we've kind of seen that. So, just something new, so long as it's truthful, something new. But I guess for me, I'd love to see someone who is just telling a story. And they happen to be bisexual, and maybe it comes up, maybe it doesn't. I don't need to have it shoved down my throat, I don't need anything proved to me. I don't need to go "Right! Half an hour into the show, they better start showcasing their bisexuality, otherwise, it's unbelievable." But I'm quite an open-minded person, I just want to see an actor being super generous and some amazing writing and hopefully fantastic lighting and direction. I'd be open to going and seeing that sort of work. I just don't think it needs to be all about that, if that makes sense? I think it would be nice to kind of be pleasantly surprised to go and see a show, maybe thinking "This is going to be all about this." And to go "Well, actually, you know, we touched on that. But wow, look at what else this character has done. And does it even matter that they're bi? Do they even need to have that kind of conversation?" So that's kind of where I'm at. But I'm living from this as my lived experience. So, to me bisexual, I don't even think about it. I'm thinking about it now, because we're talking about it. It's like being Black, it doesn't come into my mind, unless we talk about it, or being adopted doesn't come into my mind unless we talk about it. There's so much more to me. And I would say the same from a character, there's so much more to a character than just their sexuality. But I think if you're going to do a show where that was going to be sold as a point of reference. Or there was the bisexual flag, or there was something to kind of suggest that this is what the play is about. I think you do need to touch on it honestly and authentically. But I would also encourage that the show doesn't have to centre around that, or have it branch off and come back to it. Just be a bit creative about where that fits into the canvas of the character. Don't put pressure on anything, see what comes up. Workshop. This sort of stuff is super cathartic and helpful for getting content and material. And let it percolate and then come up with something. If it happens to be all about it. So long as the work is good and truthful, you'd be fine. But I think my closing statement is it doesn't have to just be about that. And there's many different ways that you can showcase bisexuality, and creative ways that you can show it without necessarily wearing the colours or saying it verbally. There's different ways that you can (show it), through dance or through music or through mixed media or through installations that you can show that character's preference. So get creative with it. But just stick to the truth. And keep it simple. That's all I'd say. But yeah, you know, I think whatever you create, it's gonna be super cool. I think it feels in safe hands. 

Thank you for talking to me. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about while we're here? Or any questions you want to ask? 

Oh, not really, I think it's just been interesting, actually, to touch on it, because I don't really talk about it too much. And so, it's actually been quite nice to talk about it. But there's also something quite nice and not talking about it. Because it means that I'm living my truth, and those that are close to me know who I am. I don't have to showcase it. So, whilst it's been nice to kind of go back to some of those memories and kind of dissect stuff and unpack stuff and share with you, it's actually really nice to just be who I am. And, it's kind of nice being a bit of a mystery. I don't walk around with a label. I don't have that. So, sometimes I get mixed responses, like, "Oh, I didn't know that." Or "Oh, oooh, spicy!" I'm like, [MAKES A GESTURE] Not at the moment, obviously. But it's just nice to kind of be. And so, I think it's been nice to chat, but I think what I would say is, it's really nice to not have to declare myself to anyone, and I can just be who I want. And as I said, at the very beginning, you know who's in my life when you meet them. And if they're a man, they're a man, and if they're a woman, they're a woman. And, you know, I'm open to having a family. That's the other thing I would say, you know, I'd love to have a family, I'd love to adopt, but also maybe have my own kids as well, the biological clock doth tick. But, again, when people say, "So do you see yourself having that with a woman?" Or "Do you see, when you visualise..." because people know I'm quite visual, like, "Do you see yourself with a man or a woman?" I say I, I genuinely don't actually see a person, which is sometimes a bit scary. I just feel an energy of family and connection. And so that tells me that I'm open to it being either a male or a female. I've not dated anyone that's trans. I've got a couple of friends that are dating someone that's trans. And I think I could be open to it. But I think I know myself now to know that my preference is probably, you know, either a (cis) male or a (cis) woman. Again, you may or may not use that in the final product, but that's just been my experience. I fall in love with a person, I just haven't fallen in love with a trans person. But I haven't been in that community so much. I think the only other thing I would say is I don't have many other people like myself. So, I don't know where to find other bisexual people. I don't know if there's a club in London. I know there's a couple of apps, but I'm not cool like that with dating apps or anything. So, it's probably why I keep attracting straight women. But, where do we connect to the other thing? Sometimes it can feel a bit lonely, like, do I want to date another bisexual person? How do I even find another person? But then I think it's not really something I'm focused on at the moment. I'm super career focused, if I'm honest, and I'm really enjoying my time. And, I think I still have some final healing to do from my last relationship. And I just kind of want to solidify what I've learned from that. Before I kind of put myself back out there. So it's not really relevant to me right now. But that's something that's crossed my mind. I think, a closing statement is just: “Where can I find more people like me? Who are open and who know what they're looking for?” And I think that's just dating in general. I'm not a big drinker as well, so the idea of going to 'G A Y' and all that sort of stuff, it's not that I don't like the space, but it's not necessarily where I would choose to go. You know, I've been, had a great time, trust me. But you know, if I was to meet people, are there spaces, safe spaces where I can meet other bi people? Is there a sports club? Do I just Google? So that's the kind of thing that sometimes crosses my mind. But outside of that, the fact that I'm bisexual is just a very small fraction of my life. But when it comes to dating, it will probably become a larger fraction. [LAUGHTER] If that makes sense.