‘I’m swimming in the middle of the river’

Pronouns: she / her

Content warning: None

Names have been changed and redacted to protect anonymity

In terms of your own identity, that can be your gender identity, your sexuality identity, how do you self describe?

[LAUGHTER] I've got two ideas. So for the longest time, as a teenager and as a young adult, being very sort of frustrated with labels to stick on people, I would just go around and say, "I'm not a female, I'm an imp." Because I just felt that whatever the idea of femininity was, it did not apply to me. At the same time, I was definitely not desiring to be a man or anything. I might desire male privilege, that's something else, but I was not desiring to be a man. Otherwise, I think I would describe as a demisexual bisexual person.

Can you explain the term 'demi' for me, please?  

Okay, in my case, the way I understand it, the person who really needs to know and have formed a very strong bond to a given individual, before they might feel any form of sexual attraction towards them, let alone do any sexual actions.

And when you say demisexual and bisexual, what do those terms mean for you personally? What feels good about those terms?

So bisexual, I also considered whether I should call myself 'biamorous'. Because I think that for me, I think I fall in love or I feel fascination for people, and I don't necessarily think about their gender. And so I think in my life I've had a lot more crushes, or sort of feelings of love towards women, but more physical relations with men. Okay, that was the 'bi' and then let me get to the Demi. So I'm not the kind of person who would ever meet a person, and then after 10 minutes: "Oh my god, I have the hots for this person, I really fancy this person. Now my next moves will be... How can I get this person to be interested in being me?" [LAUGHTER] That never happens. So the whole concept of dating makes zero sense to me, the whole concept of going out there with the aim of finding a person to wind up in bed (with) or in a dark corner. I used to think I was really prudish as a teenager and it was like "Why wait, why are you not getting laid? What's wrong with you?" And then at some point, I just came to realise "Oh." I mean, I'm not in the least offended by anybody else ever doing this. So it's not some religious or moral or whatever thing, but I've just come to realise "Oh, that's just not how I feel." And then about two or three years ago, a friend of mine from the States was using the term 'Demi' to refer to herself and I thought "Oh, what's this?" I looked it up and was like "Oh, thank you! There's a word for what I am. I'm not the only freak out there." [LAUGHTER] Right, so since then, I have words to describe my particular form of awkwardness. [LAUGHTER]

Are there any terms under the bi ‘umbrella’ that you particularly don't like for any reason?

No, I think the only time this ever comes up is if I speak to anybody who's from the.. Number 1, I feel comfortable talking to this about and it from the English speaking sort of part of.... Because, there are no terms for this here, literally, we might be using the English terms. And it's not like I'm hugely involved with any queer community where I am, but the only words that you do use are the English words, and you might be able to translate them into German, but then they probably sort of wind up sounding like medical conditions. So in that sense, I'm not terribly educated on the terminology. And therefore, what does not offend others is fine by me.

 And out of interest in Swiss German, what would ‘bisexual' be in Swiss German, or German?

You would say 'besexuel'. Which is literally the translation.

Besexuel?  

So as you can hear, it's literally the same word, but just pronounced differently. Yeah, or you would just abbreviate it as 'B'. But it's definitely not something I would ever go around going: "Yay, look at me, I am this."

In Switzerland particularly?

Bi people are a very invisible person.

Why do you feel you wouldn't really go around talking about it where you are?

A very good question. So a lot of the people that I work with in general have a very conservative mindset. So for them, it's completely mind boggling how I could be 38 years old, not married. They don't know. I don't go to places with my partner, I go to places on my own.  Of course, I do stuff with my partner, but (we’re) not that kind of couple: "Oh, I'm invited to... Oh, I need to bring my partner to everything, every single work function ever, because we're joined together at the hip" or something. "Why do I not have kids? Blah, blah, blah." So I think there's that part. And I never tell them that because I mean they can't understand that I've moved so often in my life, or that I speak two languages. So the concept that I find gender irrelevant in who I love would just completely blow their mind. So I think that's the one half of people that I wouldn't talk to this about them. I think then sort of younger, more urban people, I would not self-identify that way. Because then there would be this expectations, "Oh, you're queer. So you move in a certain way within the queer community," And I'm like "No, I don't do that either." So in that sense, my I guess my identity is just something I'm happy I found, and not something that I need to print on a T shirt.

When did you first become aware that you were attracted to more than one gender?

Oh, I think that was always clear. I don't remember a time when that was not the case. I remember in kindergarten.  And as an only child, I had a very vivid fantasy and a lot of imaginary friends. And also some of my classmates then sort of became my imaginary friends and they didn't even know what... So in my childhood fantasy, I was some kind of Robin Hood character that basically lived in trees and was some kind of an eco-terrorist. And so it was always me having to rescue the lady, like the damsel in distress or something. I was not the damsel to be rescued, I was rescuing the damsel. And there was the girl in my class who was very gentle and timid. And I guess she sort of looked like she needed rescuing. So it was always her in my mind that I was rescuing and taking care of. And I would definitely say that (was)not a sexual feeling. But it was like a fairy tale or a narrative that you give to a child would describe as the feeling that one has for one's partner. But at the same time, there was also a guy in my kindergarten that I wanted to marry and (I) staged a wedding with him, and he was a guy. So it clearly did not occur to me that the two were number one, rivalling each other or mutually exclusive or anything, really. And then I think in my head, the only examples of homosexuality that I knew were male. And I mean, I knew that from the very beginning, my family's really liberal, one of the colleagues of my father, he was gay, and he came with his partner and it never occurred to anyone that this should be in any way different from anything else. But I didn't know any same sex, female couples. And I know that in high school, I was really in love with a classmate of mine. Not in a sexual way, I would say that I was not sexual at that point anyway, I was like a really late bloomer. And then at some point, I just realised that it was a good idea to sort of claim this identity as a lesbian, because it was a form of just getting on everybody's nerves. So I spent, I think about three years of high school walking around in a white shirt with a tie, how cliche is that, ouch! I cringe! Just going, "Well, if I do that, then I'm not going to have all the annoying boys in any way interested in me because they're just going to be dead scared. And that's the way I like them." Yeah, so it was not really my identity it was just a useful mask to wear. So but I think in the sense of when did I think I love human beings and their gender is not relevant for me loving them. I think that was just always the case.

And has coming out been part of your experience?

No, not really. As in a couple of people that I'm really close to know this about me. And as I said, I'm happy that I figured it out. The comfortable way of being me, so I don't really need to have a million discussions. It's not something I feel militant about. I'll feel militant about I don't know, minority rights, human rights as something, but not as they pertain to me, but as they pertain to humankind.

What does the term 'coming out' mean to you? Even though you haven't really done it yourself, what do you think it means for you?

For me, it's never a moment is it? The timespan, the process in which a person comes to accept something about themselves that perhaps society or the people around them have either hidden from them or led them to believe was in some way harmful or wrong or whatever. And then also standing up in aforesaid Society of people and saying "I am this and this is okay. It's your job to deal with it, if you can't deal with it."

And the people that you have spoken to about it, the few people that do know, when you told them, what kind of responses did they have?

I think for the most part, no particular response. As in this was not anything that they, I mean (the response was) ‘duly noted’, but whatever, that doesn't change anything about anything. Or maybe they might have long thought. So there's one girl that I'm really good friends with that I think that we both, at a certain point, really quite fancied each other, and nothing ever happened. Well, that's a different chapter. We'll get to that later, that 'things happening' chapter. And I think she always was then in very much of a hurry to go "Yeah, but that was an aspirational crush." And that was: "I, okay, yeah, I did have feelings for you, but that's just because I thought you were so cool and I wanted to be like you. And that's a different thing from love. And that's a different thing from anything." And I'm like "Okay, either this is true for you, this is the way you need to see this now. I'm not going to push this or argue with this because it just wouldn't help our friendship," like 'meh'. But then I also think it's a bit silly.

And you mentioned that most of the responses were quite neutral, how did they make you feel?

Good in the sense that it just wasn't a thing. Because once again, for me personally, that probably is possibly also part of what I've now come to put the label ‘Demi’ on, I just don't find that the most important part of my personality. So in that sense, I'm happy for people to know me as I am. But if I were then to go, "the nails on my big toes are both really thick. And that's a feature that my mother and my grandmother have as well. I'm gonna have a really bad time as an old lady cutting my toenails" Then people would also be like "Oh, okay, yeah, whatever." It would be the same.

And do you feel being a bisexual woman affects the responses that you've had? Do you think bisexual women get responded to differently than bisexual men or bisexual trans folx?

So, trans folk, no idea. As in these people have so much unnecessary shit thrown at them. I have no idea how much they're wading through. Privilege! I would never ever be able to know. Men, yeah, because I just think that on the whole men get less fetishized than women. So I mean, that's probably also a reason why in my work environment, I would never be anything else then as private as possible about who I am. Because I've had so many situations where I mean, you know, conservative society. The idea that a woman is the boss, the idea that a woman is the director, so I really like dressing in a so called feminine way, I love skirts, I find them super comfy. The amount of times that I've had some old idiot going, "Oh, you look so much like a woman. It's so nice to see a woman who looks like a woman.!"  I just walked into rehearsal room to rehearse with you, how exactly this comment appropriate? This would not be a conversation anybody would ever get, because they'd be like "But I was paying you a compliment!" And I just think "Yeah, right. Okay, I would need to do so much discussing and educating here and I'm not being paid for that." So the next time I'll come to rehearsal I'll probably wear trousers and boots and then you'll probably go and have some fantasy about me as a dominatrix because that also happens all the time. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Well, not all the time but more times than I can count on these two hands. So I think that if they then had some kind of idea of me being anything else then heterosexual that would... Actually there was an incident of that. So to one opening night, I brought along a friend of mine, a female friend that actually (I’m) literally not at all interested in and neither is she interested in me. But I'm a tactile person, as in, " Oh, this is where the coffee machine is, and I don't drink coffee, so you'll have to pour your own coffee." And I was just sort of steering her and guiding her, through this crowd of people. It was clear that we were really good friends and then a couple people, they're like "So is this your 'friend'?" And that's an interesting thing, so German is a gendered language, right? So if you have a word, like in English 'actor, actress.' So we also have that for 'friend.' 'Freund,' 'Freundin'. And both of these words can either mean your friend or your partner.  So they're like ‘Ist das Deine Freundin?’ Which then could mean 'Is this your friend or is this your...?' And I was like "Yeah, this is my friend." And then, later on, there was just one guy and he was one of the annoying sort,"Oh, you look so nice and feminine." And he was like "Oh, were you out on the lake in a boat with your friend? Because I think I saw the two of you and your gorgeous blonde hair." And I'm like "No, I was not out on the lake. And also, I was not in a boat with [my friend] just no." No, keep your stupid fantasies to yourself. Oh go away! [LAUGHTER]

I want to talk about stereotype awareness. Are you aware of any phrases or stereotypes that are used against bisexual people, or are used to refer to bisexual people?

Yeah, I mean, 'confused,' 'undecided.' Not understanding that their amicable feelings towards that female friend are nothing compared to any feeling they can ever feel towards a man. Oh, 'chronically unfaithful?' Because you're not gonna have both in one person. Yeah, there's probably more shit out there. I might remember later.

So you mentioned your partner, your partner is a man?

Yeah. I'm laughing. Okay, I'm going off on a tangent. But you encouraged me to do so. My partner, I think if you talk about performing gender, gender as a performance, I think he's the most unmanly man you could imagine. Literally, he just performs femininity so much better in so many ways. But he looks like the way, as a cliché, you would imagine a man to look: wider shoulders, narrower pelvis, clear cut face, blah, blah, blah, all this shit. So we always have this joke that we just need to find the right switch so we can finally swap bodies between the two of us. Because then all the traits that I have would finally find societal recognition. And all the traits that he had would finally find societal recognition. If only he could be doing them in my body. And if only I could be doing mine in his so that's why when you said "Oh, I assume your partner is a man" that's why it made me laugh.

And if you were with a female partner do you feel people's responses towards your being bisexual would be different?

So you're saying if I were walking, doing whatever I usually do, except that the person is female, would people respond differently in the atmosphere? Oh, God. Yes. Yeah.

In what way do you think?

Well, actually, in some ways that I really quite like. I think that there's a lot of affection that people exchange in public that is not necessarily sexual, it's friendly. It has more to do with love, respect, care, whatever, than with 'I want to hump you'. And I think that women do that, then everybody constructed (that) to be 'this.' And then I do like that crazy and they're really offended by that. And they have a problem, but in general, they'll be more accepting of it. Whereas if a woman and a man hold hands, cuddle, whatever, that it'll just be like "Yeah, cuz they're really into each other. And they really want to make 'boskie boskie.'" Well, maybe this is not what we're thinking about when we're in a train. Especially in the last month, where there's been not a lot of need for consoling and being physically close, I sometimes got really annoyed by the fact that all of this was being interpreted from the outside world. Clearly, there's no other way this could be meant at this given moment then hornyness, there's no other emotions that we have. I think, as I mentioned before, I'm quite a private person. So I don't generally go around going "Oh, this is my partner. I'm going to bring my partner with me everywhere." So in that sense I think it wouldn't matter, man or woman, because whoever they are, they don't stick to me all the time anyway.

And are there any stereotypes that you're aware of just for bisexual women?

“You've never been so properly fucked by a man to know the penis in a vagina cannot be beaten or something.

That's a good one. [LAUGHTER]

There's something interesting, it only works in the German language, though. If you want to refer to a person who is queer, no, if you want to refer to a person who is homosexual, I think I should be more precise. So in Swiss German or standard German 'Vom Anderen Ufer' which means they're 'from the other bank of the river or lake.'

Can you say it again, please? Vom Anderen Ufer?

'From the other shore.' So it's not it's not derogatory or anything, it's neutral. I don't think anybody would ever self use that as a form of self-identification. It's not a slur. And so then faced with that, my statement would be "Yeah, I'm swimming in the middle of the river." And then I heard "Oh, well, you're going to drown there."

Oh, wow.  

Yeah. Butonce again, that's just the play on language. I don't think that this person necessarily meant bisexuality is a route to death or something. And I think what I like about that is the idea that, well, if you’re from this shore or from the other show, then it's very clear where you are. There's something solid under your feet. And there's something more fluid about the other state and fluid. For somebody who likes stability, (that) could be scaring.

I like the characterization of fluidity. I really like that. Have you ever heard of the term 'bi erasure'? 

Yes, only quite recently actually. The way I understand that, and this is mostly coming from my housemate who at some point was quite sort of active in the queer scene. Would be the idea that, so analogous to the way that lesbians are underrepresented in comparison to homosexual men. Bisexual people are yet less represented. In part because they might be less noticed, because they spend at least part of their time in the arrangement the society expects. But also because they might be insufficient for everybody's norms, so homosexual people might consider them not fully with the cause and straight people, or at least bigoted straight people, would then consider them pervy or something.

Where do you feel that your bisexuality could be celebrated? I know you keep it very private. But where do you feel like you could be comfortable expressing it or feel welcomed?    

Probably simply at a society that is more pluralistic them the one I live in now, as in an imaginary world in which I would have stayed in London, I think this would just not be a thing. I mean, probably wouldn't rub it under everybody's nose. But it would just  would not be a topic. It would just be a kind of normality that nobody was like "Oh, my God, this is a thing," the same way that it is with my few close friends here. So more urban, more open.

Is there anything else you'd like to talk about while you're here?

Possibly an anecdote, I don't know if it's interesting or not. I think that has been around my head for a bit. So my start into getting actually physical with another person was definitely with men. It was my first boyfriend. And then at some point, somebody asked me, "Oh, why didn't you get physical with women first, you would have had much more opportunity to do this." And that was something in my head for a very long amount of time that I thought. Well, sexuality is, a lot of it is very awkward anyway, doesn't mean it's bad. But it's just awkward. It's a lot of sort of figuring out “what's okay for you? What's okay for me? What’s happening now? What's this doing for you? What's this doing for me?” And I always thought with the guy, it's obvious that it's awkward, because we have these completely different bodies. So no wonder we have no clue what to do with each other. And I always thought that with a woman because she has a body very much like mine, there would be this expectation that I know the mechanics a lot better. But as a complete late bloomer, I figured "Oh, God, by the time that I sort of joined in everybody else, already knows everything." [LAUGHTER] So I sometimes now question myself on the notion of "Oh, why did I think that?" As soon as somebody has the same body, you're just sort of automatically expected to know everything about them. Probably the biggest difference between us is not actually what our sexual organs are.

Yeah, that's interesting though, isn't it? That kind of understanding that "Oh, well, you have the same bits, so they work the same way." Do they?

Yeah, exactly.

There should be like a handbook, even if it's even with someone of the opposite gender. When you first start doing it, it's like, "Oh, god, what bits do I do?"    

For some reason, I have this idea that with the opposite gender, it's sort of more okay. Because they're also clueless, possibly.

It must be a bit intimidating.

Also, I have no idea how, one tends to think of sexuality as a kind of performance. And then one sort of relaxes into realising that it's a discovery or something and just the discovery just keeps going on, and then things become a lot less stressful.

Yeah, it is a lot of pressure for it. Isn't it? The idea that it's not meant to be like you’ve seen (in) movies, it's actually something a bit more chilled out most of the time.  

Hopefully.

Fingers crossed. Otherwise, I'm doing it wrong. [LAUGHTER]