“They’ll bring the ‘finger guns’”

Pronouns - They/Them

Names have been redacted for anonymity

Opinions are participant’s own

How do you self-describe?    

I do very strongly identify with queer. Obviously, I'm very much in the middle of every spectrum there is. [LAUGHTER] I'm the most non-binary person in the world, I personally think. So yeah, queer fits for me. The first thing I sort of identified as in terms of identity at all was bisexual. Because I didn't know what it was, I didn't know that existed. And then when I found out that something called bisexual existed, it was like an epiphany. I realised "Oh my gosh, that makes sense!" This is normal, it's not something that's crazy. Because before then I only knew straight and gay, I didn't know anything else.  In terms of my gender identity, I would identify as just non-binary, I'd say, or genderqueer. Sometimes gender fluid, but I feel like I'm always queer, if you see what I mean? I feel like sometimes you're at either end of the spectrum whereas I'm always in the middle. 

And what feels good about those terms for you? 

I think I can define them myself. I feel like 'queer' is very … you define what it means for you. Obviously, it's gonna be not straight or not cis, but it's a fluid label. And I'm a fluid sort of person, so I think that's why I like them. 

And in terms of the 'bisexual umbrella', are there any terms that you don't necessarily agree with? 

I think I've gone through different phases. Like I said, I first identified as bisexual just because that's the first thing that I heard that applied to me. And then when I found the definition of pansexual, I then thought, "Oh, this is more me." So I haven't identified as bisexual quite long time. But then I feel like I've come back around to being okay with using any term. And I think there can be some... I don't wanna say divisiveness. But I think people, there is sometimes conflict between pansexual (and) bisexual, because I feel like some people identify bisexual as quite a binary thing because it's 'bi'. But I disagree with that definition of bisexuality, I think it's quite an old version of it. So when I see bisexuality now, I think of someone who is attracted to more than one gender, but it doesn't necessarily have to be just cis women and just cis men. It can be multiple or all genders you can be attracted to. But then the difference is with pansexuality, you don't have a preference between those genders. You don't favour one or the other and gender isn't really something that you look for when you are trying to (meet) someone, it's not a factor. Which I think applies to me. But I think the reason I prefer using queer rather than pan so much is I think pansexuality sound(s) more clinical, official, 'this is the term and this is scientific', whereas queer just feels like a personality thing or like a more casual way of saying... It's like when people don't say, "I'm homosexual," they say, "Oh, I'm gay." "Oh, technically, if you're gonna be scientific. I'm pansexual," or you could say bisexual as well. But I'm queer. I'd be cool with using any of the terms, really. I think they are all under one umbrella. I understand that people don't want to use one or the other. Because they identify with one more than the other. But that’s fine, I understand that, but for me I'm not really bothered. [LAUGHTER]

Do you mind my asking, when did you first become aware of your sexuality?

When I wasn't denying it? I want to say 13... 14/13? I think I was aware that I was attracted to people of other genders, not just men. I guess 10 years old, maybe crushes on people when you're a kid, but I didn't want to acknowledge it at all, because ‘I fancied a boy as well so this can't be real’. I was brought up very Christian, and so it was something I thought, "Oh, this isn't a problem, because I'm also attracted to men, I also fancied boys. So it mustn't be something that's a big deal." But then when I got older, (it) became more of a big deal, I guess. And then I found out what bisexuality was, and that you could like both or at that time 'both', because I had no idea about genders back then. And I was amazed! "Oh, that's what makes sense. Oh, that's fine. I'm just I guess I'm just that then. That's okay." [LAUGHTER] So I guess, that happened. And I was about 14. Because it was at school, actually crazily enough. And they actually had a lesson on sexuality, which is weird.

Did they?    

Yes! So they used to do social class, where they do stuff about social things. It was in that class and they had a lesson on different sexualities, which is really weird because I remember actually, later on in my school life when I was in year eleven it must have been. When you do proper sex ed when you're like, 16. And I remember going up to the teacher and saying "There isn't anything here for queer people. Where's my gay sex education? I need to know how to be safe!" when they were like, "Okay!" [LAUGHTER] And I was like, "You need to do better!" But that's actually kind of a joke because the reason why I realised I was queer was because in that class, it was said, "What sexualities do people know?" And people put their hands up, 'straight', and someone said 'gay', and I was like "Oh yes I know those things, straight and gay, yeah I know that." And then someone else said 'bisexual', and I was like, "What is that!?" So that's a funny, weird thing. We say lots of stuff about education, but actually maybe my school was okay.

Amazing, that's so good to hear. It's so good to hear that a school actually did talk about that. 

Yeah!

It's fantastic. And has coming out been part of your experience?

I think once I realised that bisexuality was a thing, coming out to myself was easier. Because it was like "Oh, I don't have to be one thing or the other thing. I can just be how I am now. And I don't have to, there's no pressure basically to shut off one part of myself." Because that's what I felt like, when I thought "Oh, maybe I am gay." But then it felt like I was always lying to myself. If I was trying to fit myself into one box or the other. I just felt like I was lying to myself. I can remember thinking at one point, to be one or the other is like to tear myself in half. To deny part of who I am. And so I thought that I'd have to play that role of pretending to be one or the other thing my whole life. Until I realised that I could just be me, and that was fine and it existed, which was a great feeling. But I think after I'd realised that, the hardest part was to come out to other people, which I guess for queer people like it's a hard part. After realising who you are, telling other people and coming out is like, the next hardest thing. I think there is that thing with being queer or being not on a binary, that makes people want to say that it's not real. Which is obviously a difficult thing, because once you feel so validated in yourself that you can just be yourself and this is you, when someone else says "Oh, yeah, but that's, you know, that's not real thing right? You can't really be that" it’s quite hard to deal with. I guess.

How does that make you feel when people react like that to you?     

It used to make me feel like "Oh, I just wish I was gay, or I just wish I was straight, then it'd be so much easier to come out." I've actually heard gay people say "I wish I was bisexual, then people would take it easier." And I'm like, "I wish I was gay because I feel like people would be able to deal with that easier!" Back when I was younger, that's what I used to think. But now I just think, I just want to educate people now, I think. If people reacted to me that way, I'd want to let them know that.... I feel like I have the words now to explain that it is real, and that I've been living as me, like thi,s for quite a long time, well, quite a long time. So I just kind of educate people now. But it does make you feel invisible. I think that's the thing with representation. It is really important, because without that, without people, like in that class without people saying 'Oh bisexuality is a thing', I never would have figured it out for like a way longer time. So I think when people say, "Oh, it's just not that big of a deal," Not seeing yourself represented, I think, is a big deal, because then, actually, you can find out who you are. If that makes sense.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. That's great. And the term, I'm gonna use the term 'coming out', what does that mean to you? 

Letting people know that I'm not cis/het, I guess. Because... just walking around, I think people easily do just assume that I am not queer. And I think that coming out is about letting people know that I'm not. I don't know. I guess it's also about being brave enough to come out of hiding, I suppose. Because with being bisexual, it's very much like you can pass as straight, and dating someone who is not themselves queer, and you can very much get away with straight passing, and coming out is saying that you're.... not? [LAUGHTER] I'm trying to think of a good way to say it!

No, I think that's pretty eloquent, to be honest.     

I think it's a privilege in being straight passing and being as cis passing, for sure. But coming out is also a gift to yourself. Because it's letting people know that what they're seeing about you isn't always right. And they're not seeing the whole you, maybe? Being honest, as well.

And when you have spoken to people about your sexuality, have you had any kind of responses from individuals or from groups of people? 

I'm talking a lot about school but that's, like, my main coming out.

That's okay! 

I remember it went around the school like wildfire, when I came out to just a group of people who I went to class with. Which I was surprised at because I think at the time, I guess I saw myself as queer, but I didn't think that it was that weird of a thing, because it's so natural for me to be attracted to other people. I think we kind of forget, I don't know if you have this, but, we forget that it's not, natural to everyone else. At school people were like "Oh, would you ever do this? Would you ever kiss a girl? Blah, Blah, Blah..." And I'd be like: "Yeah." And they'd be shocked. And I'd be like "Why are you shocked? Who would say no to that?!" Like, "Why are you shocked?" and then "Oh yeah, like, people are actually straight." [LAUGHTER] But when it went around the school, I do remember some boys in my class talking about it. And I don't know even if they talking to directly to me, but they were talking about how, oh, they'd never date someone who's bisexual because 'are they just gonna cheat on them?' You know, 'bisexual people aren't faithful', you know, that lovely stereotype... I don't know where that comes from because I've never heard of that happening. I was like, "If someone's gonna cheat on you, why is it different if they cheat on you with a boy or with a girl? I'm so confused." But I remember that and feeling quite defensive and feeling like "Well, that feels like it's not fair." But yeah. I'm trying to think of another time.

That's all right. For your gender identity, which term would you prefer I use?     

Non-binary is fine.

Non-binary, okay. Do feel being a non-binary bisexual person has affected the responses you've had some times?     

I'm not sure about that. With my non-binary, I'm quite fresh coming out with that. Like I've always been experimental with gender identity in how I dress, how I look and all that. For quite a long time. But it's been quite recently that I put a label on it, in that I've actually said like “hey, these are the pronouns that I want people to use.” So, I don't know if I've noticed it as much really, I don't know.

And how about before you had the chat with people going "Hey, please, can you use they and them (pronouns)?"  

Yeah. 

How did you find that? Did that affect how people responded to you?

I think it definitely did. Again, it's that: "Oh, Is it a real thing?" Do you know what I mean? Where it's not all the way. Because it's in the spectrum, it's not on the binary, I feel like people kind of think it's an 'optional' thing. It's that  thing where people are like "Oh, you're confused," or "Oh, it's a phase" or something like that. I think people do view me differently, because of my request to use they/them stuff. But the majority of people have been supportive. Like my good friends have made an effort to be supportive, which actually means quite a lot to me, because it is something that people want to brush off quite lot of the time. They've known me for however long using these pronouns, and they see me as a woman, which is laughable to me, because I've never seen myself as a woman at all, ever. It's interesting to see how other people view me. And I think you don't really know that until you say "Hey, this is how I view myself. I'm letting you know, this is me." And they're like "Hmmm... I don't know though, is it you?" And I'm like "Yes, please." [LAUGHTER] 

(Jokes) "I don't care about how you identify yourself! This is not how I fit you in the box.” 

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's very much like: "Hmmmm... In my mind, you must be here. So you can remain there." Like "Please no!" [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I didn't realise how people had been seeing me this whole time. And I guess it makes sense because if you don't come out and tell people they're not going to know. That's fair enough. But it's funny because, to me, it's like something that's always been with me. But the more you acknowledge how you feel on the inside, like, outside, when people get it wrong, it's like more of a thing. So I think back before I was acknowledging myself and how I was feeling and people were using the she/her pronouns,  I was just used to it. And it wasn't that big of a thing. But now that some people don't use it, and then now when other people do, I'm like, "Oh, man, oooh I don't like that!" It's like "This sounds wrong to me." Whereas it's something that's been being used for me, up to this sort of point. It's interesting, once youlet it out the bag, once you are like, "I can be free!" You notice when people are trying to put you back in that box, I guess. It's like, you know, I've had a taste of fresh air, and I'm like: "Nope, I will not take this anymore!" [LAUGHTER]

Thank you. And in terms of the gender (of your) partners, has their gender affected the responses you've had from people, when they've learned about your being queer?    

Yes.

Yeah? 

I think it's very much the whole thing of "Oh, but how do you know you're attracted to other people if you've only dated men?" For example. And the idea that "Oh, you have a boyfriend? Ah! You're straight. Oh so you are straight, Oh I see. I knew you were straight. And you were just saying that you were bisexual, or whatever, just to get some attention. Oh, I see how it is. Oh, you just kissed one girl, oh but you have a boyfriend? Oh, okay. That's right, I understand." It's like "No! I'm literally living out my sexuality, by dating different people, different genders." And they're like, "Oh, so you're this now?" And I'm like "No, this is what the sexuality means! It means dating people with different genders." So yeah, I do think that people are very eager to go: "Finally I've got them. I've got them! They have a boyfriend now. So... I knew it all along!" [LAUGHTER] At the moment, I am in a long-term relationship with a cis, mostly het, man. So I think that sometimes I feel like it does affect me because before I was in a relationship with him, I had a relationship with a woman. And I feel like, when I was with her, I felt like I didn't have to come out to people. Because I'd just say "Oh, this is my girlfriend." And then they be like, "Okay, this person is clearly queer, that's their description." Whereas I think when I started dating my boyfriend now, and I love him, obviously. But I was worried that part of me would…  So I've been a bit of a hypocrite here, but when I was first going on dates with him, I was worried that it would erase part of my identity. Because lots of people who I've been with before were in the queer community, and my boyfriend now is not in the queer community at all. The closest he's got to not dating a woman is me. So I'm the queerest person he's been with. And I think I had to come to terms and acknowledge that that's not changing who I am. But I think that's why being in the queer community just for myself is quite important because it keeps me connected to other queer people.  I follow queer people on social media and I still keep in contact with my queer friends and things like that, because I was just worried that I would be disconnected. And I think it's important to stay connected. Because I think sometimes living out my life like in that relationship, I didn't want to fall back into pretending to be 'this person', pretending to be like his last girlfriend, for example. I didn't want to feel like I was back to pretending to be that sort of person, because that's not who I am. And I've finished that now, pretending, I'm done with it. I'm not going back to doing that. So I think yeah, it's important for me to stay connected to all my lovely queer siblings. Just so I know that I'm not back to hiding. 

If I can... (go) back to the kind of responses you've had yourself when people have learned that you're bi, you mentioned two boys at school talking, and making assumptions about promiscuity. Have you had any other kinds of responses from people, what sorts of responses have you had? If you feel comfortable talking about it.

Yeah. I have an older sister, and her best friend is gay. And I remember when he came out, they were having a conversation about him being gay and things. And one of them mentioned bisexuality, and I remember him saying "Oh, that's something that just  gay people say they are,  when they first come out. And  it's not a real thing. If a man says he's bisexual, he's just lying to himself, because he's actually gay," all this stuff. And I remember feeling really invalidated by that. I don't think he knew, I didn't come out to him at the time. This is when he had just come out. He was  sort of 16/17 I think anyway. But like I looked up to him very much. And I think when I found out he was gay, I thought "At least like he's gonna understand, if I come out to him. He'll understand because he's gay. So he'll know and he won't be negative if I come out." And then hearing him say, that was  quite hurtful. And I think it kind of pushed me back in telling my sister, my family, maybe. Just because I was like, "Well, if he can't accept bisexual people, and he's gay, and he understands how straight people react to gay people coming out, then how are straight people gonna react to me coming out?" You know what I mean? Yeah, it was quite painful for me to hear him say that. And made me feel really small, I guess, because I was like, "I thought you were showing the way by coming out to my sister" and that kind of stuff. That was quite sad. And actually to this day, I have not had a conversation with him about my sexuality. I hint, I hint that I'm queer. But we actually haven't had a conversation. We're still close. He's actually my boss at work. He got me my job. [LAUGHTER] That's how  close a family friend he is. But yeah, so that's quite interesting. And it's quite a solid memory, a solid part of my coming out generally, I guess. It makes me think that maybe I should have a conversation with him about it, and see... because at the time, he was also young. And I'm sure he was also facing pressure of "Oh, but you still like girls." You know what I mean, I'm sure that's where it was coming from. He's not a horrible person in any respect. And I'm sure if he knew that's how I was feeling. Maybe he wouldn't have said that, maybe we would have had a second think. But yeah, I think that's one thing that hurts me, or has hurt me the most, is when queer people can be bi phobic,  can invalidate by saying "Oh, either you're just straight and you're just trying to get attention." Which... why? Who? What straight person would do that? I don't know. I've yet to meet someone who's straight who has done that. But again, people think that that's a thing that people do. Or that it's like: "Oh, you come out as bi first because you're too afraid, or you don't want to come out... to be gay,  straight away." Which I mean, obviously, it's fine. If you think you're bisexual, and then you explore more and you realise "Oh, actually, I am straight or or actually, I am gay." I have no problem with people doing that. Because it's a journey, you're not always gonna know straight away and you need to experiment. I understand that. But I think it's hard when people put that on people who know that they are bi. It's like, "I'm not experimenting or exploring. I do know I'm bi. I mean, maybe I will discover later that actually I feel this way. But right now, this is how I feel. So it should be valid." Just because one person came out as this and then actually they discoverd they were something else, doesn't mean that they were invalid as a bisexual when they came out as bisexual. And it doesn't mean that I'm invalid now that I'm coming out as queer or bisexual. 

Thank you. Are you aware of any words or phrases of stereotypes that have been associated with the bisexual community? You have mentioned a couple already. I'm just curious to see what you're familiar with.     

Well that's what I was gonna say, the ones I've mentioned already: bi people always cheat, or they can never be really attracted to one person because they're always attracted to someone else. Which... you can still be monogamous and bi. I don't understand that. I feel like that's polyamory. That's something different. But there you go, people think that! And again, saying you're bisexual is just a phase, on the way to being gay or thinking you're bisexual but you're actually straight. Apart from people saying that because bisexual is the ‘old’ term, or it's the ‘binary’- just cis men and cis women- that people who identify as bisexual are transphobic. Which I think is really putting words in people's mouths. Just because I'm identifying my sexuality, it's the way that you understand sexuality that is transphobic. It's not how someone is expressing their sexuality. And I think that's quite interesting and sad. And I'm sure those people are not transphobic. I'm sure that's not what they mean at all. They're just attracted to more than one gender. So I think that's all that I know. I'd love for you to enlighten me for more though, because I'm sure there's some that I've forgotten.

I'm just so curious to hear what people have heard, not necessarily just what responses they've had used against them. But what they hear in other ways. And how about words or phrases or stereotypes that are associated just with non-binary bisexual people? Can you think of any?     

I don't know about that, apart from I'm sure there's plenty of straight cis people who would just say I'm confused. And mentally ill. I mean, they say that about many trans people, as we all know. But I think it's the idea that like "Oh, you don't know what you want, clearly. Because one day, you don't like this, one day you don't like that, one day you're with this person, and then you're attracted to that person... what's up?" I think, for people who are not attracted to more than one gender, it must be quite a mind bender. Because for me, to only be attracted to one gender is a mind bend for myself. I think that's something that is hard for people to get their head around. If you're straight then you know you like these people, or you're attracted to this group of people. And you can kind of understand "Oh, if you're gay, it's like that, but it's just the opposite. Oh, okay. It's just like me, but it's just a different group of people. Okay, I understand that." And then there's like bi, pan, queer people who are like "Hmm... everyone!" or like "Hmmm, not bothered!" And they're like "How can that be, though?" Because I think it's just such as an alien thing compared to people who are on either side of the spectrum. So I think that's kind of why we have a harder time acknowledging that it exists and that it's real. And again, like I said, even people who are gay can find it quite hard to understand that you can like more than one. That's something that people can do. Because again the only reason why I can acknowledge… well, I don't think it's the only reason, I'm trying to be open minded, obviously. But I think the reason why I can acknowledge who can just like one is because of media, and stuff like that. Because the media we see often is men and women, of course. But I see that that's the thing, and that it's all these... and  my friends like talking about boys and stuff. I understand that's how they are. Because it's representation. That's the thing, because there's representation of those more binary sexualities, I can kind of put myself in their shoes and understand that more. But because there's not as much representation for people like us. Sorry, if I can say that. 

Yeah!   

Then it's harder for those people to understand something that is quite different. And again, with gender as well, it's like "Well, I know I'm a man, or I know I'm a woman, and that person although they're trans they know they're the one thing. Okay, so they're just transitioning into the other. That's okay, cool. That's fine. And I can get my head around that." But then when it's someone who's like: "Yeah, gender huh? Hmm... A trip, huh! Yeah." And they're like "What gender are you?" You're like "You tell me, my friend!" They're like "How could that be? I don't understand. How can you not know? or How can you be all at once? That makes no sense to me."  I think it's something… because you're in the middle, it's maybe harder to understand for other people, which I appreciate. But again, if there was more representation, then it would not be as hard for them to figure out. Because then, I feel like when you know someone who is one of these things. It's suddenly not alien. And even if that's something, someone who's a character on a TV show, or someone who's not even real, if you can empathise with them as a person, and then they're just this identity as well. They just happened to be... then it's like "Oh, well. That's not as scary and alien then. They're not completely weird people. They're just a regular person. And they happen to be this. They're just a regular person who happen to be that." You know, that's why representation is so important, I think. 'Cos like, once you know someone: ’Oh, it's not like a 'big, scary group of people. Who knows what they're doing?' It's like, "Oh, yeah, it's just Fred, you know, it's just a dude living their life, yeah, that makes sense. And they just happen to be this. Oh, I guess that's fine then." I don't know. It just normalises it a bit, I think, and that's what we need to see.

Absolutely. Are you aware of the term 'bierasure'?   

I am aware of it. I'm assuming that it's kind of similar. Where it's like.... bisexuality and sexualities that are not binary are, not talked about, or kept quiet. And... I guess the 'B' in LGBTQ+ is kind of faded out. That's why it makes me think of the 'B' slowly turning invisible and fading away. [LAUGHTER]

Just getting smaller and smaller, and further away. Yeah, that's pretty much,, as far as I'm aware, the meaning of the term. And especially what you were saying before about "Oh, well, you're ‘experimenting’." Or "No, you're just halfway out halfway in". Yeah, it's very much the kind of refusal to recognise it as a valid thing in its own right.     

Yeah. 

But I think yeah, I think it sounds like you've got a very good understanding of it. Not that would be a problem if you didn't. I'm just so interested to see if people are aware of that.    

Yeah. I think I have thought about it a lot. Because, when I've realised that this sexuality that I have, it's not something that everybody understands. Because there are plenty of people who disagree with being gay and all of that stuff, but they understand what it is. Whereas with bisexuality, I feel like for lots of people on either end, whatever their views, they still don't really understand it. Whether they're supportive or not supportive, or anything like that. So I think I have realised that I need to know these things. And I'm quite interested in, I don't want to say, activism. In my own small (way) trying to educate people, I guess. My own small effort in educating people and putting a face to  the  term, I guess. So it's like "Oh, you're bisexual? Oh, I've a mate. Yeah, they're bisexual. So okay, I understand what that is." I know lots of people do understand what bisexuality is, but some people don't.

Yeah, amazing. Just going back to responses really quickly, have you ever felt that you've had some very positive responses towards your sexuality? In what spaces do you feel like you can celebrate and welcome your own sexuality?

That's quite a hard question. I don't know, I've had not negative responses, I've had neutral responses, as in: "Okay, cool. You're bi, okay. Cool,  You live your life. It's good to know, it doesn't bother me."

How do they make you feel, the neutral responses?

I think valid; I think that's quite an underrated response to coming out to someone, it's like "Oh, that's great. I'll support you. Go live your life." And it's not like a celebration, but it's like "Oh, cool, doesn't bother me," it’s actually quite nice. Because it's like  it's not a big deal. And it is just my life. And they're like  "If you need help, I'll support you. But go and live your life. Thanks for letting me know." It doesn't change anything. And I think that's quite nice, that when you tell someone or someone finds out and it's like "Oh, this doesn't change anything," and they're like, "Okay," it makes you feel like "Oh, yeah I'm just a regular person just doing regular person things. And people just treat me like they would treat anyone else." That's quite good. In terms of celebration, I guess in some queer spaces, I do feel like I can celebrate myself. But again, in queer spaces it can be quite hard as well, because it's easy to not feel queer enough. I think, in some spaces, where you want to celebrate these other people. And then they're like "Oh, but you know, you have a boyfriend, you can straight pass for a while." It's like [Sad voice] "That's true." And I think it's hard to celebrate, celebrate it and also acknowledge privilege and stuff like that within my sexuality. Because then you feel like you're just celebrating how easy you have it, compared to some other people, I guess. And that's obviously not something that I want to do. But obviously, I can acknowledge that bisexuality is something that should be celebrated, because it's still something that is a minority and it's still something that isn't always acknowledged. And it's good for us to feel good about who we are. It's good to be able to live honestly, and not be apologetic about it. Even if there's other people who are different to you, or less privileged or less passing or any of that sort of stuff. Yeah, I guess that's what I would say. Also, I think, on the internet, there's lots of really cool queer artists, and when we have different days, where it's like trans visibility and all - And when I see people do art with the bi flag or the pan flag. I think that's when I felt quite celebrated, 'happy bivisibility' or whatever, and they have like a character illustrated with colours from the (bi) flag. And I just think, "Oh, that's quite nice." Do you know what I mean? Or when I see the flag up with the LGBT rainbow flag. And when I see the trans flag, and then I'll see the bi flag or pan flag,it's quite nice to see. It's like "Ah, that's nice." I'm like "That's me!" [LAUGHTER] The bi flag is me because the rainbow flag I see as everyone, do you know what I mean, and it's not just 'gay' to me. I don't know, for other people it can be other things. I'm sure like, that's part of it, it's like, it's your own interpretation. For me that is the all encompassing flag. But then when you see a flag that's just for you it's quite nice. That's the one that's specifically for me. [LAUGHTER]  Yeah, I mean, one of my friends is also bisexual. She is, because she's cis and she's only sort of dated men. And she's very femme and everything. I think she, more than me, has a hard time... presenting. I don't know, but I feel it's also easy for her to be invalidated. Because people look at her, she's femme, she's cis, she dates men. Because we wouldn't see her as queer, it's hard for her to see herself as queer sometimes, I think. And I actually recently bought lots of little 'them/they' badges because I love it so much. I'm actually not wearing one today! But I was looking through and there's all these really cool queer pride badges on Etsy. I love badges, I love pins... anyway. And I saw this heart one and it had pride going across it, but the heart was like the bisexual colours.

Ah!

It was a little 'bi pride' heart. And I just bought it for her because I thought, you know, it's nice for her to have something that is like, 'bi pride!' To celebrate her. So I did get that for her. And she actually really appreciated it. I celebrated her bisexuality with that, because I wanted to show her that it was worth celebrating. But then it also validated me as well, because I thought  we're in this together. And it is worth celebrating. It's kind of like an 'I see you' sort of thing. It's like,you've come up to me, other people might not see it, you want to be comfortable telling people or coming out as much as I am. Because I do feel compared to her, I feel like I do, feel quite queer. But, so yeah, I think it was just a moment of saying "I acknowledge you." You know, "I know that this isn't something you just said once and then it's not continued," t's not something … you've said offhand. It's you and I see that. And I acknowledge it. So I think that's one moment of celebration. For her, but then also for me.

Amazing. Fantastic. Thank you. And final question… you're going to the theatre, you're gonna see a bi person on stage, what would you want to see?    

That's really difficult… Do you mean like an actual bisexual person on stage or they're playing a bisexual person?

Someone playing a bisexual, like a bisexual character. Sorry that's a better way to phrase it.    

I was like, ‘a bisexual actor? I mean, just walk on stage!’

(At the same time) Just walk on stage! [LAUGHTER] Sorry! That's my bad interview skills, sorry. 

They'll bring the 'finger guns'

And sitt in a chair the wrong way. Yep, all that.

All that, all that. I love that you knew about the chair thing. [LAUGHTER] It goes with my cuff sleeves and my jeans are also cuffed.

Excellent.

I think what I really like to see is, if it was a bisexual character in a romantic plot, I'd like to see that whatever sort of gendered person that they were with, or that they had a romantic like plot with. I'd like to see the conflict…  like an inner monologue or something like that, that shows that being with this one (person) it's them accepting that no matter what other people say, being with this one person doesn't define their sexuality. So that people know that they're with this person, but they're still bisexual.  So the bisexual character gets into a long term relationship with this other person. And then other characters may be saying "Oh, so you're not bisexual now," or something like that. That it's like "Oh, does this mean that, your sexuality has changed or?" Something like that and then that causes the bisexual person to maybe worry themselves that they are not... not 'not bisexual' anymore, but it makes them feel invalidated. And then they actually have to come to terms with "No, no matter what other people say, no matter who I'm with. I'm still bisexual. And this is still something that I have inside me. You know, it's something that I am. And it's not going to be changed by external things. It's an identity. It's not dependent on the weather." You know what I mean, it's not dependent on what other people say or how others perceive me. I think it'd be interesting to see that inside someone's head. So they have to have that conversation with themselves, and then come out of it feeling stronger and feeling stronger in themselves and more sure of themselves. And then also continuing that fabulous relationship with that person. And knowing that who they're with isn't going to define them. I think that's what I'd like to see. 'Cos I don't know about other people, but for me, it's like an essential step to accepting your bisexuality. It's like having that moment where you're like "Oh, no. Maybe people are right" or "Oh, no, maybe who I'm with does change me or does invalidate me." And then it's coming to terms with that, that's not true. You know, who you are is who you are, it's not going to change depending on external things. It'salways going to be yourself. For me, that's  an essential step on my journey, so I'd like to see that. I think if I saw a character have that sort of struggle internally, and then come out stronger afterwards, I'd feel super seen and validated. I'd think "Oh, yeah, that's it. That's it. And they succeeded. And they came out the other side, and everything was fine." I feel like that'd be really uplifting.

That's a really good point. Thank you. That's all my questions. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about or add?  

I just thought of one more thing that I'd like to see.

Oh, yeah? 

I was just gonna say, again, in that story; I think it would be quite interesting how it's a bisexual person, but you don't actually see them with any other person but this one person they're in a romantic relationship with. And just because I think you don't have to show people with every single gender that they're attracted to. Or you don't have to see them be attracted to all these different people to show that they're bisexual. And I think quite a lot of the time, in the media, that's how it's shown,  they have a boyfriend and then they have a girlfriend, for example. And then they're like "Oh, well, they must bisexual, because they did like this person and now they're with this person," Like, very rarely, I feel,  do you get a character who actually says they're bisexual. It gets shown by them dating different people. I mean, it's useful to show someone can be with these different people, and that it's fine. And that they're living their life. But I think it would buck the trend by just showing someone be happy with this one person but still be bisexual. And still be perfectly bisexual. Yeah.