“I think it's because I'm quite feminine presenting. I feel like in some ways it invalidates my identity. I feel like I need to look ‘more queer’ if that's even a thing.”

Pronouns: She/Her

Names have been redacted to protect anonymity

How do you self-describe? In terms of your gender identity, your sexual identity, what terms do you use for yourself?

So how, just like 'female, male,' that kinda…?

Yeah, some people call themselves cis or non-binary, you know, whatever you'd like to disclose really.

Yeah, I guess cis female. Yeah, I don't identify as trans. 

And in terms of your sexual identity, your sexuality, how do you self-describe?

Usually bisexual. I know there's a whole debate around bisexual versus pansexual, but I feel like bi is probably just easier for me to use. But yeah, sometimes I get worried about using that because I'm worried that people think I'm not attracted to trans people, which is not the case. So yeah, bi or pan or just queer.

Are there any terms that you've come across that you don't necessarily like underneath the bi umbrella?

I'm not sure, actually, I'm not really familiar with terms under the bi umbrella. 

So, for example, Pan would be considered under the bi umbrella. The bi+ umbrella, forgive me. Or omnisexual or polysexual, are there any that you don't particularly like?

I guess I'd identify with all of them, just because they all imply attraction to more than one gender, but I just use bi for myself.

What feels good about the term bi for you? What do you like about the term?

I feel like it's the one that's maybe most recognisable, easiest to understand. And I think because I actually didn't give myself the label until a few years ago. So now that I feel comfortable using it, I just like to use bi because... I realise that I'm 23 now, and I think only started to feel comfortable using it a couple of years ago. And I think I was a bit in denial before, so now that I've come to accept the fact that I'm bi, that is what I feel comfortable using. And then it might change to pansexual as I feel even more comfortable in the bi label. And that's why I like using it for now. Yeah, it feels quite liberating. 

Oh, nice! [LAUGHTER] Liberating, that's such a nice way to put it. Do you mind my asking, when did you first become aware of your sexuality? So, I know you said you mentioned you came out a few years ago, but when did you first start to think that you may not be straight or gay?

I think the first time I realised that was attracted... Because growing up, I just assumed that I was straight. And I think (at) around 16, I became attracted to an English teacher who's female. So, I didn't realise that was like romantic, sexual attraction at the time. And but then yeah, looking back, I realised that that was when I started to question my sexuality. But I think it's interesting that from around 13, even though I wasn't maybe aware that I myself was queer, I was very interested in LGBT issues. So, I was really invested in speaking up for LGBT rights. So, I wonder if there was something there already, that I wasn't aware of subconsciously, or that I identified with. But yeah, the actual time that I realised that I wasn't straight was around 16. And then I feel like from that point, I gave myself a bit more permission to be attracted to other genders, if that makes sense? Because I realised that I was capable of being attracted to females as well. And so, when I felt that attraction again, I didn't try to suppress it or think that I was straight. And I think I was questioning whether I might have been a lesbian, but then I still continued to be attracted to guys. So yeah, I hope that's not too rambly.

Oh, not at all. Rambles are great! [LAUGHTER] I love a ramble, so please feel free to talk away, I'm absolutely delighted. You mentioned that you came out recently, so coming out has been part of your experience?

Yeah, I think that actually the first time I said I was bisexual was probably to my mum, a few years ago on a trip to IKEA, which was interesting. We were just talking about sexuality, and I just said, 'Oh, I think I'm bi.' So, it wasn't even like a whole sit down conversation, I just mentioned it. It was like a non-event, really, she was just accepting of it and said, 'Oh, that's good.' [LAUGHTER] And I think since then... oh, I think actually, so that was when I actually first said that I think I'm bisexual, so that was around 21. And I remember when I first started Uni, I was talking about sexuality with a few friends. And then someone asked me if I met a woman that I was interested in if I would want to date her? And I said, 'Yeah, I would be happy to date a female.' So, I think really, at that time I didn't give myself a label. But I opened up about talking about my attraction to more than one gender. And then just recently, since I started my Master's (degree), I only told my good friend I was bisexual a couple of months ago. And I think now, since I've started my Master's and I've been focusing a lot of my work on LGBT issues, I felt like it was important to be more open about it, because people might wonder why I'm so invested in LGBT issues. So, when people ask, I say, 'Yeah, I'm bi.' And I think a lot of people just assume that I'm a lesbian, which is interesting. Before I tell them that I'm bi… I have a friend now that I met on my course. And I can't remember what he said exactly, he knew that I did a lot of LGBT stuff. And then he said something, we were in conversation, he was like, 'Oh, you would know, because you're a lesbian.' I said, 'No, I'm actually bi.' I thought that was interesting. So, it's only very recently that I've started coming out to more people. But I think I came out to myself and use the label just for myself, a few years ago.

The term 'Coming Out,' what does that mean to you, personally?

I guess maybe coming to terms with my sexuality, maybe? Yeah, I've not actually thought about that. [LAUGHTER] I think maybe coming out... because I was gonna say, (coming out is) when you tell other people about your sexual or gender identity. And for me though, I guess would (it) be when I first told people about my attractions, because I'm generally very reserved anyway. I don't like talking about romantic interests, and sex and stuff. So, yeah, I think for me coming out was when I felt comfortable telling people about my romantic attractions. 

Thank you. And when you have mentioned it to people, you mentioned that you told your mum on a trip to IKEA. That's the best way to come out, I think. Fantastic, well done! What kind of responses did you get? You mentioned your mum had a bit of a non-response? 

Actually, yeah, I think the first time I remember I told her, she said I might figure out that I'm interested or that I'd want to settle down with a man or a woman but that I don't think that was her being biphobic. I think she just wasn't yet aware of how it worked. I guess it was just an assumption that I would either realise that I want to be with a woman or a man. So, I just explained that it just meant that I had the potential to be attracted to anyone, and whoever I settle down with would just be who I happen to be attracted to at the time. So yeah, I don't think that she was trying to deny that bisexuality existed. That was just her first reaction, that she thought I might think later on that I that I would want to be either with a man or woman.

And how about your friend, the one who assumed that you were a lesbian?

He was just kind of surprised, I think he just assumed that I was a lesbian. And then he just kind of got over it. And then he just said he has a lot of bi friends. He didn't really question it further. Although, he does sometimes say that I'm ‘half lesbian’, which I've not challenged him on that, but I don't think I would consider myself half lesbian. I don't feel comfortable with the term lesbian to describe myself. I think he means well, I've not really challenged him on that. I think he just says it in a jokey way. But yeah, he does often say that, 'half lesbian.'

And do you find that it's common that people will just assume that you're either lesbian or straight? They won't guess 'bi' first time?
Oh, yeah, definitely. I think because I'm interested in queer issues, I think people just assume straight off that I'm a lesbian. Or people just think I'm straight, just in general conversation. This is more like older people, so saying 'if I have a boyfriend or when I meet a boyfriend', or something. So, I guess that's the heteronormativity there. I mean, if I told them that I was bi I don't think they would care, but the first assumption is just that I'm straight. And then the people that know that I work on LGBT issues, I think just assume that I'm a lesbian, but I'm the only time that was confirmed was with my friend that I mentioned. So, I assume that other people might probably think that I'm a lesbian as well. 

And do you feel being a bisexual person of your gender affects what reactions you get from people?

Yeah, I guess because I'm quite feminine presenting. And I actually wrote something down on this because it came to mind. Let me find it. I think it's because I'm quite feminine presenting. I feel like in some ways it invalidates my identity. I feel like I need to look ‘more queer,’ if that's even a thing. Like, I don't know, 'stereotypically queer', with short hair or dressing in a more androgynous way or something. Which I know is kind of stupid, but I feel like I have to present in a certain way to be seen as queer. And I think maybe that's why recently I've even wanted to possibly cut my hair shorter. I guess I just want to be seen as not straight. So, I feel like being feminine presenting probably does impact other people's view of me as well. I think they probably just assume that I'm straight. And for me, personally, it's that I feel like it doesn't show that I'm queer. If that makes sense?

Yeah, completely. I don't know your relationship status at the moment. But do you feel if you are with a partner, or a previous partner or current partner, do you feel their gender affects people's reactions to your sexuality? Or their assumptions about your sexuality, sorry?

I've actually never been in a relationship, I'm not in one currently. So, I have thought about what that would be like. I have thought that if I was with a guy, I would be worried about being seen as straight. And recently I prefer the idea of being with a woman, just so that people know that I'm queer. I don't know if that's maybe some kind of internalised biphobia, maybe, or just not wanting to be seen as straight. Because if I'm with a man, I guess people will just assume that I'm straight, and I don't want to be seen as straight. I can't talk from experience of actually being in a relationship, because I've never been in one. But yeah, that's how I thought it would be like if I was in a relationship.

And you mentioned that you don't want people to assume that you're straight. Would you be more comfortable if they assumed you're a lesbian? Or do you think actually, you want to be known for what you are, a bisexual, queer woman?

Yeah, that's interesting. I think I want to be seen as bisexual, but I would prefer that people saw me as a lesbian rather than straight, because at least that's still under the LGBT umbrella. Which, thinking about it now, I don't know if that's kind of biphobic or if it's just me wanting to have my identity validated. But, if I had the option, if people ask me, I do tell people that I'm bi, but if someone doesn't know, then I don't want to be seen as straight. 

I'm going to ask a bit about stereotypes now and stereotype awareness. Are you aware of any words or phrases or stereotypes that are associated with bisexual people?

Yeah, I guess, being 'confused' or assuming that you're gonna 'pick a side', or that you're 'promiscuous' or 'like threesomes', stuff like that. Those are the ones that I'm familiar with. Or that you will figure out that you're straight or a lesbian eventually.

And how about any stereotypes particularly for bisexual women? Are you aware of any that are just for women, or are more gendered? 

Yeah, for women... Oh, there was one like 'cheating' as well. That you'd be more likely to cheat, I don't know if that's more with women or men.  With women, maybe the promiscuous stereotype might apply for just (them), because women are already objectified. So, I guess maybe the promiscuous stereotype might apply more to women and I feel like people even forget that bi men exist. So, I feel like a lot of these stereotypes probably apply more to bisexual women, because I think bi women are more visible as well. I'm not too familiar about any specific stereotypes for queer and bisexual women.

Are you aware of the term bierasure?

Yeah, so that'd be the different ways that bi identities are invalidated. So, if someone says that you'll eventually be with a man or a woman, that would be bierasure.

Yeah, I think that's a pretty good grasp on it. Or the undermining of bisexuality; "It's not a thing." I think you hit the nail on the head.. And I'm just gonna ask a bit more about the responses that you've had from people. Have you had any responses, besides your mother and your friend, that you would say were overly positive or overly negative, or anything like that?

No, I think it's all been neutral and because to be honest, I have quite a small social circle, So, the only time that people are aware of my sexuality is if I'm talking about my MA (Master's Degree) work. So, usually that's neutral. I've not received any overly negative or positive responses, it's all just been accepting for me and neutral.

Amazing. Have you ever had an instance or a time when you felt that your sexuality has not been welcomed or accepted?

Not for me personally, but sometimes I do just read stuff online that makes me realise that biphobia is still rampant. So, there was one with Harry Styles or something. It was a comment section on Instagram, where they were saying that he'd said that he was queer. But it was just a comment that said that they would expect that Harry Styles was either gay or straight, because he'd previously said he'd be open to having relationships with anyone, or something like that. But yeah, it was just that one comment that made me realise that there's still a lot of biphobia. But I've not received any discrimination personally. 

That's good to hear. How about the opposite then, have you had any examples or times when you feel that actually your sexuality has been celebrated and accepted?

In popular media, or?

In your personal life or in popular media, or if you've mentioned it to somebody or something's happened that's made you feel welcomed or accepted?

Yeah, I feel like in popular media, there's still more celebration of lesbians. Yeah, I mean, because then the bisexual women, they're always seen as 'going to a man' eventually. Even in, you know 'Gentlemen Jack?' 

I've not seen it, but I've heard of it. 

Yeah. So, Anne Lister has these relationships with women that are with men, but they will eventually go back to men. Which is obviously based on true events anyway. and even in like ‘Orange is The New Black’ with Morello? I don't know if you've watched ‘Orange is The New Black’?

I'm terrible with telly, I do need to watch more telly. [LAUGHTER]

But there's a lesbian character who's in a relationship with another female inmate, it's not explicitly said that she's bisexual. But I would say that she was, because she has sexual and romantic feelings for the lesbian character. But she has relationships with men outside of prison and then the lesbian characters is always saying that she's gonna go back to men. This is a while ago, I think it came out in 2013. But yeah, I feel there's always, in popular media, the idea that bisexual females (have) always got the man to go back to. So, I feel like there's probably more that could be done to challenge that view.

And in what spaces or communities do you feel comfortable expressing your sexuality? Do you go to a particular community group or a club? You say you're very active and you're very passionate about LGBT rights, are there any particular places where you do feel like you can go and be welcomed?

Yeah, there's a youth LGBT group near where I live, they're very open to welcoming people of all sexualities and gender identities. So, I've gone there sometimes, but that's also for like work stuff. But I've never I've never felt that people there invalidate bisexuality. I felt comfortable talking about it there. To be honest, I'm not really part of any LGBT groups. So, I've never really been in that situation. I would like to join more, so I have thought about how bisexuality would be received there. So yeah, I've definitely thought about it. But I've not really had any personal experiences of that.

Thank you. And you mention that you did a Master's degree and that you were at this community group for your work? What did you study? What do you do?

I did a Master's in Public history at Royal Holloway. I've recently submitted the final project the oral histories project. I've currently finished with it, so I'm just waiting for my mark. But I think throughout I was focused on LGBT stuff, I did a podcast on Justin Fashanu. I don't know if you've heard of him? 

Yeah. 

So, I did a podcast on that. And I was mostly involved with the youth group I talked about with other work, with the youth communications charity, because I do some LGBT stuff there. So, I've spoken to them to talk about their work and interview some young people there. So yeah, I feel like there are quite a few bisexual people there that I can relate to, so that was good. 

Amazing. And if you knew you were going to see a new piece of theatre or a new television show or a new film. And you knew there was going to be bi representation in that, what would you want to see? What would you be hoping was there?

I think maybe a more stable relationship. If there was a bisexual woman or man, just maybe a more stable relationship with someone of the same sex or gender, just to challenge that idea that they'll only have a brief relationship with someone of the same sex and then they go back to, someone of the opposite sex. I think more of an exploration of same sex relationships with a bi person. And I think maybe more of an exploration of them actually talking about their identity, so that people have a better understanding of what bisexuality is. So if there was a main character that was bisexual, and you were able to explore how they viewed bisexuality or their identity, I think that would be really helpful, just so that people don't form judgments based on a relationship alone.

Amazing, thank you. And is there anything else you'd like to talk about? Are there any other points that you'd like to mention? Or do you have any other thoughts that you'd like to share?
I think that's it really.  I did talk throughout about thinking that I have some internalised homophobia, which I think I need to explore more. 

Why do you think you have that internalised biphobia?

I think probably because of the stereotypes around bisexuality. The idea that you're really just straight or lesbian, but I think what bothers me more is just being seen as straight so that's why I prefer for people to assume that I'm a lesbian even though I'm not. So, I think yeah it probably just stems from the stereotypes surrounding bisexuality definitely. 

Amazing, is there anything else you'd like to add?

I think that's everything really. I was reading some of the transcripts, I think they're (the other participants are) quite involved in going to groups and stuff, but I didn't really have that much experience of it. I would like to talk more about that. But I'm not part of any groups and I've also never been in a relationship. So unfortunately, I can't. 

That's alright! Don't worry. Every experience is valid, it doesn't matter how many relationships people have had or what groups they're involved with. Every experience (is one) I'm so interested in hearing. And the beautiful thing is you have all the time to explore that. And it sounds like [REDACT] has got a great support network out there, so hopefully there's something nearby. Twitter and Google seem to be our friend, that's how I find communities. 

Yeah, it would just be nice to speak to more bisexual people. Yeah, and I think it's just a really good project that you're doing, because there's really not much at all on bisexuality, in the archives. I was thinking doing something on bisexuality for my final project, but I was just worried about not finding anything. So yeah, to have this archive and the show is really good. 

Thank you very, very much. 

Thank you, I hope this is gonna be helpful anyway, even if it doesn't make it into the show.

Everything is valuable. So thank you so, so much.