‘I can move within this queer spectrum, within this queer bubble’

Pronouns - He/Him

Content Warning: References to Biphobia and homophobia

Names have been removed and redacted for anonymity.

What are your pronouns?

I use He/Him. It's funny because I actually had this conversation with my partner recently. Because I practice spirituality quite a lot, and in alchemy, for example, the perception of 'the perfect being' was a perfect combination of male and female. And so, the psychological androgen, reading psychological papers about it, and where androgyny and the androgen came about and it was actually more deemed towards the perfect psychological state of someone. And this was research that was done in the 70s. But it was like the psychological state where people of both genders could utilise positive characteristics from the opposite gender, according to the studies. So, you can have positive masculine traits, again, how they defined them in the 60’s and 70’s as being affirmative, and being quite good at decision making and a leader and strong, then you can have negative male aspects like being aggressive, jealous, possessive. And so just saying the perfect psychological being is actually the androgen, however you then define yourself in terms of your gender. So yeah, it's interesting, someone could use any pronouns with me, and I'd be like,  that's fine". Because I'm not attached to them, but, out of respect, I don't identify as female. So, I'd be ‘He/Him’. But I do make sure that in my psychological and spiritual practices, I do use the 'feminine', as it were, traits to help balance out decision making and life choices. Which is not necessarily something you do consciously, I think that's part of what makes someone's personality. And just like sexuality, existing on the spectrum, I think gender exists on a spectrum as well. So yeah, in answer to your question, He/Him.

And in terms of your own gender or sexuality identity, how do you self-describe?

So I'd say I am a cis-gendered. I normally say cis-gender queer man. I use queer because I feel that exists more as an encompassing spectrum of sexuality, because unfortunately, as soon as people hear 'bisexual', they go: "bi.. two, there's only two genders, you're only attracted to one of or just those two." As opposed to acknowledging that it’s very similar to when someone describes themself as bilingual, you don't presume that there's only two languages that ever exist. It might just be that they can only speak two or, it's very rarely that someone say trilingual or quantra lingual, people just (go) "well, they speak more than one language, they're bilingual." So I'd usually say yes, cis-gendered, queer male.

What feels good about the term queer for you?

It allows for that umbrella as you said, which I love that, you know, people on Instagram, on TikTok, are now starting to use bi or bisexual as an umbrella term, which I really like. But for me for a long time, queer was that way … it gives you freedom to move, I can move within this queer spectrum, within this queer bubble that I've given to you, to help you understand if I'm dating someone who identifies as male versus someone who identifies as female versus someone who doesn't identify as either or both. I feel like if you say queer, it kind of gives people that ability to kind of go, "Oh, I don't really know which of these boxes to put you in, so, I just wait until you move from side to side." Because, again, if I was dating a cis-gendered, female, for example, I wouldn't describe myself as straight, if anything, I'd probably subconsciously become more vocal about being queer, and making sure that that they knew that I was, also attracted to more than 1,2,3 genders.

Why do you feel like you would do that?  What motivations are behind that?

Again, it would probably be some kind of subconscious affirmation. Because I think it's about bi visibility. If I was walking down the street, and it was, you know, I guess like passing or just conforming to this very societal, like what society I guess thinks is very comfortable for me to walk hand in hand with a cis-gendered woman, versus with my cis-gendered, black boyfriend at the moment. Like it, and I feel like it would be, you know, we would still... if she was straight, or she identified as straight or further towards the straight end of the spectrum, then I'd still encourage her to come to drag bars with me and to, you know, have her go to like, queer …theatre. Like I'd still be very, as loud and advocating of like queer arts and queer culture as I am now. It wouldn't be like, "Oh, cool. Now I can just like, see you guys, I get to I get to pretend to be… Or I get to fit in to this little narrative now. So I'll see you later!" Like, I'm like, "No, this is, this is, this is part of my family. So if you're coming in, like, welcome to my culture." Effectively.

And are there any terms (under the Bi+ umbrella) that you feel that you don't necessarily agree with?

I think language has this amazing thing of being defined by the person who's using it. Unfortunately, we share language. So, you say something, I finally came out and was like, "This is the last time I'm doing this. I'm too old for this shit." But I finally came out a little later, maybe two, three years ago, in terms of coming out to my housemates, where I work, because I work in a gym, which is (a) very dominant masculine area or environment. And I found it easier to say that I was gay, because they would then understand that there was this big shift from the person that they thought, or they created the version of myself that they created in their heads. So, if I can effectively kill that and then run to the other end, and then say, "Oh, I'm gay." Well, it didn't add that shock value. I just thought people are more willing to accept that than bi, because then you turn around and you say,  "Are you sure? Are you sure it's not a phase?" And, again, as soon as you're dating someone of the opposite gender, they're just like, " Oh, I really like this partner. You guys should get married, or you should move in." But if you're dating someone of the same gender or a different gender to either one, or either or, that's when people are a bit like, "Oh, yeah okay, well, maybe that's just a phase. Or maybe you're sexually attracted to that. Maybe it's very exciting." But yeah, I haven't heard any terms, but I think it's sometimes the presumption that it's [CONNECTION BREAKS], as opposed to this "I am allowed to and do feel differently about different individuals at different times, irrespective of one another." It's not like 50% one, 50 % the other, like 48% goes over here, 37% to there, 12% goes over here.” And, at the same time, that super sexually charged, bisexual image that some people have in their mind- and I think that more so for women, I don't think that gets pushed onto men as much because the sexual fantasy or the over sexualization of two men or a man being bi is nowhere near as prevalent or existent/at all, as it is with women who were bi. So, I think there's that, "Oh ok." And there's the idea of threesomes or being sexually promiscuous, where you're just like, "You're selfish, or you just can't choose." But yeah, personally, I haven't heard a lot of those. But I know that they exist, and I hear them being referred to other people. I think my stepfather, or our stepfather, referred to my brother when he came out as bi, "Oh, he just can't make his mind up, or he's just selfish." So you hear it. and you're just like, "Okay, that's how you want to perceive this because you're not willing to, or are not ready to, push past this narrative that you have. That's on you really."

You mentioned that you found it easier to tell people at your gym that you're gay. Do they now know you're bi? Or do they still think you're gay? Is that an easier assumption for them, do you think?

No, I suppose so. I mean, because it's my workplace, it's very rare that I'll interact and have these kinds of personal conversations. I actually came out through a podcast. [LAUGHTER] I was like, "Everyone at once, here are all my fans. What fans? You got three followers on Instagram, what are you talking about?" But yeah, there were two people that I really wanted to come out to. And they were my housemates, at the time that I was just like, "No like these are, these are like my Australian brother and sister," And everyone else who's just going to get podcasts that I put up on my Facebook. It also covered my mental health struggles with accepting and coming to terms with (myself) and I think what's great about social media, and I can't believe I'm about to say this, but the great thing about social media now is it's being used as a fantastic form of self-representation. Unedited self-representation with people who have a platform, they can now make their own movies, their own creative content, where they get to share their experience, and you're flicking through Gen Z videos, and  "Holy shit, I want to protect the new generation of queer babies, because if any one comes for them, they are living their life so proud. And they cause so much light." If we could then start opening up the conversation, when you're part of something bigger, it's that visibility, it's that positive visibility, where we no longer have to only accept films where there's a tragic ending for queer characters, where we can now just have that visibility where there just happens to be queer characters. Look at 'Schitts Creek', for example, the character of David wasn't really addressed, it was just there. I think actually that's the first time I went "Oh, okay, that makes sense." Describing myself as pansexual, I don't resonate with that. But it's when he was doing that wine bottle analogy, and one point 'I liked a red that used to be a white or sometimes I go for rose...' and you're just, "Yes, this is stripped back, child friendly 'Ta Da!'" Circles and squares, apples and oranges but sometimes when you mix them together it tastes better! Why does it have to be this big tragic, unfortunately that's the story the most of us have, but on TV or films or theatre, why does it have to be this big tragic fight for recognition, for (a) coming out and then some kind of tragic, kicked out the house of suicide ending? Okay that I'm glad that that did happen, for the shock value, but can we start having visibility now? Can we start just being? Can we get to be that character that has the comic relief, can we get to be the character that is the boss? Can we get to be the character, not asking for a main character, I'm just asking for background characters like everyone else's, you know? 'Love Simon' as well, there’s just a nice feel-good factor at the end. It wasn't about someone being bullied or manipulation in that and the fear coming out, but it was still this feel-good film I found.

'Love Simon?'

It was originally a book, it's probably the first time I've ever said this, but I prefer the movie to the book. It's just a wholesome (film) giving you moments of, "Shit. That was what High School was like for me actually, well secondary school." So you're just like "Okay, that's kind of cute. That's nice."

It doesn't need to be this 'Hollyoaks' drama shit, in my opinion anyway. [LAUGHTER]

I forgot about that. I remember watching, as soon as there was one gay character, one gay love interest, watching 'Hollyoaks'. Under the covers, and really quietly, so my parents can't hear me watching it in my room, as they walked past, turning off of muting it. And they got two minutes of screen time, and I watched the whole shitty episode. So the whole bad acting just for that screen time. And there was a fight and "Let's break up." And there was a hate crime. And you're just like "Ah, is my life?" No wonder it takes a lot of people a long time to come out! Because "I don't want that!"

Do you mind my asking, when did you first become aware of being queer?

For me, it was very early on. So, I remember becoming extremely self-aware, but for very different reasons around the age of eight. And it's interesting talking to my mom now, I'm able to recall things that I thought, "Oh, I was probably eight or nine." She's like, "That happened when you were three, or your father and I were having that conversation in the kitchen. And we were eating or you were watching Power Rangers, or whatever, in the living room. How are you aware of that?" Growing up (and) finally become aware of the different forms of being bisexual. Similarly, being on the spectrum for autism, I'm still coming to terms with what that means for me. Because it was only really an adult diagnosis, or official diagnosis. So there are things “Oh yeah you did pick up on these details, and you're very aware of what's happening, human behaviour, and you're trying to study it, to try and understand it.” I mean, I remember having attraction to boys and girls very early on, but not really knowing what that was. You're a young kid and the, I don't know, assistant, if you got a young assistant teacher that came in, or one of the older school kids that was helping out with the sports for the day, and you're just like, "I don't know why I'm obsessed with you. But I'm running after you now. [LAUGHTER] I'll stay and help." But I think the interesting thing, when I became completely self-aware that, back then when I thought I was gay was, I was sitting in maths class and I had just started a new school. So, I was probably about 11 or 12. I'd just come out of primary school and all my friends went to one school, and I got sent to another school. So, I didn't know anyone and the one girl that was meant to be showing me around, her and I (got on) pretty quickly. I think maybe two weeks into this new school, she's sitting next to me and she was just doing maths stuff really quietly, and she just turned around to me and she's like, "Can I ask you something? And don't be offended by this" And I was like, "Yeah, sure." And she's like, "Are you gay?" And I was like, "No!" Because at that age, you stub your toe and 'that's gay'. Or you know, your parents will give you (a) lift and 'that's gay.' And then I sat with it for about 60 seconds. And "Shit, actually think about the definition of that word." I was like "You know that question you just asked me? Um, yeah, I think I am." I was like "Holy shit," this thing was like, "Oh, don't tell anyone because I think I've just figured out for myself" And still being attracted to one of the girls in the other classes and just being, "Oh, I don't understand what this means." Unfortunately, the next day, it had been spread around. So, I was about 11, or 12, and before I got to figure out what that meant for me, I was the only gay… well I wasn't, because later on in life I've found out that some of the other boys and girls have come out now. But yeah, I was the only gay guy, and getting really interesting responses from that. And by interesting, I mean, shit. But yeah, new school, I didn't know anyone and I was just trying to form relationships with people. And then suddenly, it was, "Okay, this is who you are now." And so you had to play to that. And remember, at adolescence, you're trying to figure out what your identity is and what your personality is like. I think the only representation would have been obviously we had... fuck, who am I thinking of now? I'm thinking of old TV shows. I feel like there was an old TV show that was set in a shopping centre?

'Are you Being Served?'  

Yes! Yeah. And it was like one very, very camp guy. And it was always alluded to that he [was gay] which we knew what that meant in those days. Or, you know [gay men] they seem to be, theatrical and I was just, "Is this what I'm supposed to be? Because I don't know if that is who I want to be, or if that fits with me, but I guess I'll start doing drama. I guess I'll start doing dance, I guess I'll start coming away from sports, and also the threat of death. Quite literally." If I looked or touched any of the boys on the team, so I was like, "You know what, never mind. I'll quit this team for you. And I'll just start doing drama stuff or I'll start doing solo sports instead." Yeah, I just remember it being (a) really amazing 24 hours. Where I was just, "Whoa, shit, I'm gay." But if that happened today, I'd be, "Whoa, I'm queer!" It's amazing, because obviously language is a lot more accessible now. Coming to school the next day, just having that [sharp intake of breath] "Okay." So yeah, you went from having no fear and feeling free into suddenly (being) labelled and pushed down. And my mom also worked at the school. So I was just like, "Fuck! she can't find out, she can't find out!" Yeah, could I try and date one of the girls in my year? And then yeah, , "Oh, I'm bi. It's cool. Don't worry, I'm one of the cool guys. Because I can be either or, so please accept me still." It was weird, because that becomes your normal, your narrative. You think that that’s gonna make people more comfortable with you. As a male, you could potentially be seen with a female partner and vice versa. So, I think I kind of held on to that. So, when I had the opportunity to reassess, or reinvent. When you go to a new city, or you go to a new school, or you go to University, you get to then explore what that was. And that's what dance school was for me. Dance school was a very freeing experience, because I got to really play with how I identified with gender in terms of sexuality, how far I wanted to go with that. Yeah, so that was a nice, creative, free space to do that. And I found that people were still very quick and easy to go, "Oh, you're this kind of gay, or you're gay, you're not bi, you're gay. I haven't seen you attracted to a girl for a while or anything like that." So you're just like, "Okay.” And when I left Dance school, I had the opportunity to reinvent myself, and unfortunately, that's when I just went, "You know what, it's gonna be easier if I just don't think about guys at all and only focus on cis-gendered women." And unfortunately, that created this really negative narrative in my head where if you were a female you had to act a certain way. And if you were male you had to act a certain way. Yeah, it took me years to break (that). So yeah, thank you 'Drag Race' for helping me break that. [LAUGHTER]

'Drag Race' has got a lot to be grateful for and answer for in equal measure, I think.

Oh yeah. This is why I genuinely think a lot of my straight friends could benefit, just educationally, from watching a series or two of 'Drag Race.' Just to be introduced to these concepts in the language and exposure where it's a positive exposure. They're not talking about “Oh, and this happened, and this happened.” They do have those moments because it still makes good TV. But it's just them expressing themselves. Yeah, I remember the first couple of episodes I watched, I was like, "God, but they're men, and they're dressed up as women, and they're using the wrong pronouns." And then I was like "But they're happy. I'm the only one in this situation who's unhappy or feels uncomfortable, and it's not uncomfortable with what I'm seeing, I'm uncomfortable with how resistant I am and how scared I am that I've said something truly damaging to someone else, because I've had that mindset." So, started welcoming [CONNECTION BREAKS] -with open arms. And as soon as I hear anyone, I think one of the guys on the team actually tried on a pair of heels whilst at the gym. And I was like "What would your drag name be?" He was like "Hmm, I'm not sure," he's British as well. So, he was trying to think of this really tongue in cheek, pantomime style name. But all of the others (in the gym) go "Ohh, I don't know what I'm looking at right now." I'm just like, "A non-toxic straight man. That's what you're looking at, it's a pair of shoes. Chill out."

You mentioned that you got stuck with a mindset for a while, because of the reactions you had about "You can't be this, you must be that." How long did you hold on to that for? What kind of effect do you think that had on you?

So, I think I kept maybe reacting to sexist comments, when I just started a new job. I was just working in a kitchen straight out of dance school. I was like, "Oh, God, this is pretty insensitive." And one of the chefs turned around and they (said), "Alright, are you gay or something? Oh, it doesn't matter if you are, but are you?" And I was just like, "No." And as soon as I said no, (I put) this padlock on me exploring that side of my sexuality. So it would have been 2011 I reckon. And then it was when I was in Australia. So I'd say maybe like 2015, maybe 2016 until I started allowing myself to explore the male side of sexual attraction, or stop denying it at least. It was there, but I was just "No, just don't, you can just ignore it." And as a result, any demonstration of very comfortable, very open, very happy, gay or queer men made me very uncomfortable, because I'd just be like, "Oh, I (don’t) want to be represented by that." And it's the very typical narrative that most people who exhibit homophobic behaviours are afraid (of), that it is a reflection on how they might be perceived. And especially this really horrible, toxic narrative that no matter what you do, as a man, you cannot be perceived as weak. And defining weakness as being expressive or vulnerable, and open and living your life outside of the box. Which are actually, as we know now, huge strengths. Which not many people have the courage to live like that. Especially if there's going to be some kind of stigma added to it. So yeah, unfortunately, and I wouldn't say I'm ashamed, because I feel like that kind of diminishes the journey that I went on. But if I could have sped that process up, if I could have allowed myself to open up the possibilities in my viewpoints earlier, I would have been a very different person, I think. But yeah, it's kind of been this constant like in/out, in/out of the closet, that I just thought "You know what,-" once it got to it, there was a very dramatic thing that kind of happened. And I kind of had that choice, to basically just completely end it all or to turn around and make sure I just never get myself to that point again. And from that day forward I was just like "Everything I do now has to be for my own benefit. For my own health and my own happiness. And that includes being truthful and being honest and if that means that you have to have some awkward conversations and maybe lose some people along the way, then you know what? Those people aren't meant to be in your life." And I honestly couldn't have asked for a better response. I think the best response I've ever had from coming out to someone was my housemate at the time, who's (a) very straight, very macho gym bloke. No one that I've ever came out to has cried more than he did. He was in tears, just could not stop it. Ugly tears, snot, hugging me, just:, "I'm so sorry if I've done something that made you afraid to do this before, or made you think that you couldn't talk to me about this." And we work together at the gym still to this day. And the gym owner messaging me after he listened to the podcast and being like, "You know, you make some really amazing points about what it is to be a man nowadays, and being raised by a toxic masculine individual, and being a new father of a son, I'm really interested in talking to you about your viewpoints on what positive masculinity is, so that I can make sure that I'm not subconsciously saying these things to my son." Like 'man up', like all these very typical things that children hear all the time from their parents. Not knowing that's just a reflection on what was pushed on them when they were kids.

The term 'coming out', what does that term mean to you?  

It's in 'Love, Simon'. And I think it's Jennifer Garner, she plays the mother. And there's this really beautiful scene after he's come out to his parents. And she says, "For the last few years, I feel like you've been holding your breath. And I knew that something was going on, but I didn't know what. But this is your time to breathe, you can exhale, you get to exhale now, Simon." And I remember, even talking about it now, I was just like, "Oh!" I remember watching that scene and just being, "Fuck, that's what it felt like." It felt like being able to actually exhale for the first time, you're constantly always just holding your breath a little bit. For me, I think coming out is just exploring your potential and exploring your freedom. You get to do that. Again, my old housemate who bawled his eyes out, that's what he said as soon as soon as he calmed down, and even days afterwards, and even to this day when we talk about it. And that was probably two, three years ago. He still says: "I'm just so glad", because the scene in that movie with the mother was very similar to what I had with my friend, where he was just like, "You get to be you. I'm so excited to see, your potential now that you're not holding yourself back. Because what you're doing now is amazing. You've now let go of this weight, what are you going to be capable of? I'm just so happy for what this is going to mean for you." And it's interesting that I think that although not coming out in terms of the term, but I think a lot of people, regardless of gender, regardless of sexuality, could really benefit from their own version of coming out. Which is effectively letting go of this version of yourself, the stigma that you've held on to, this armour, this mask. Where you get to go, "You know what, I was holding on to that, not for me, but for you. So that you could feel better and more comfortable about placing me in a definitive box. But I'm letting go of that. I get to breathe now. I get to explore who I am, unapologetically, unconditionally. And that's it. This is the rest of my future from this point on." It's like a rebirth, really.

You mentioned a fantastic response that you had from your housemate, as a very positive response. Have you had any other responses from people when you told them that you're bi or you're queer?

It's like you never stop coming out constantly. Like uni classes. I'll be talking about something, I might mention my partner and then because I'm 31, I'm obviously one of the oldest students. So, I'm in a class of 18-year-olds, 19 year olds. And so, I'll make a comment about my partner or something, but I got very good very early on in life with avoiding pronouns. I'd always say 'they/them/their'. And they would always be like "Ah, but your missus is blah, blah, blah." And I'm just like, "Well, first off, he's not mine. And secondly, he's a he." People are like "Oh, woah, you don't come across as gay, you're not like most gays." I'm like, "Well, you evidently haven't hung out with many queer people, if you think that I'm not 'like' most gay men, or that there is a 'most' of anything." But it's never negative. I just don't think I allow for that space. It's not a challenge if I come out to someone. It's not a challenge nor is it a seeking of approval. If I come out to someone, it's because I'm just letting you know that you're using the wrong pronouns. Or it's because you need to be aware of this for a certain context. Some people at the gym are just like, "Oh. I mean, I don't care. But I'm glad you're happy." Yeah, actually, I haven't had any negativity. People might have chosen to drop off from my radar or not talk to me as much. But none of my direct friends. And I think because I was very vocal about queer rights. I mean, I'm very vocal about everyone's rights at the moment, if I'm honest.  I always kind of hid under the shadow of my brother. "Oh, because my brother's gay or my brother's bi." And they were like, "Oh, yeah, of course. He's got siblings who are queer, he's got cousins who are queer, so that that makes sense to why he's like passionate about it." And living in Australia during the marriage equality referendum was quite confronting. There was this big referendum. So, everyone got like this postal vote, and it was anonymous and all you got was this piece of paper. It just said, 'Yes/No'. And I remember seeing my, 'cause I wasn't a citizen back then, so I couldn't really vote on it. And I wasn't out then either. Actually, I think I came out very shortly after the bill passed. So, after marriage equality was announced. But I just remember being so confronted by this piece of paper that just had the ability for someone to express themselves by saying 'no I don't want...' How does someone get the right or get the ability to decide? On such a whim as well. Could you just tell me, would it just be like a quick little tick and then throw it back in the ballot box and send it off? How does someone get to vote or be decisive on my rights? I was almost like some kind of weird Facebook poll: "Hey guys, just checking, who wants this and who doesn't?" And it just felt that whole referendum, in itself, is probably the biggest piece of homophobia, I guess, I've seen in a very long time. Underlying homophobia. It wasn't even understood as to how offensive or how hurtful that whole process was. Because there had been general opinion polls, years before and they were "Yeah, 60 something percent of Australians think that there should be marriage equality." And you're like "Well, shouldn't that be enough? Why do you need to drag this out?" Because it also then gave people the opportunity to graffiti everywhere. There were "The word is 'no'" all over the city. People were paying for sky writers to write the word 'no.' And then a tick through the zero, through the 'O'. And you're just like, "Oh, this is fucked." And this is Melbourne, Melbourne is like one of the more progressive cities of Australia. So you're just: "Sure. Okay, sweet." So, I'm very aware that, in Australia, living in Melbourne is very much a bubble. If my partner and I were to move to a suburb 45 minutes away, we'd potentially struggle. Well not struggle, but you know, people wouldn't be as accepting or I don't know. Again, this is 2020, so I don't really know how people would respond. But I know that three, four years ago, when that was all going down, it would have been very, confrontational to see. Yeah, I guess the response (has) been, personally, it's been positive.

Do you think being a bisexual (cis) man has affected the responses you've had? You've talked a bit about the different reactions different genders get. But, in terms of the responses you have had, do you think that's been affected by your gender?

I think being a man changes a lot for me, anyway, or maybe vice versa. Being cis-gendered male gives me so much more allowance. I feel that people are automatically more comfortable to be"Ah, sweet, good for you, mate." Again, I wonder if I was more of a like a loud "flamboyant" character, if I (was in) bright colours, if I basically followed the stereotypical character references that everyone has in their head. If I was more feminine, in terms of my actions, then I might have got a pretty different response. Which then again, goes into question that psychological aspect of is this group of straight men acting differently, because you don't think I'm acting like a man? Or are you acting differently because you think I'm now acting more feminine, and therefore you need to start treating me the same way that you would regard women, but I'm also a man and so that's where the conflict is. For me especially I think people in the gym just see me as gay. So them, it's 'foreign.' Whereas again, I erase my own sexuality. I'm a negative example of people just allowing people to be like, "Oh, yeah, whatever." My housemate, for example, I made a comment about someone being attractive. And she was like, "Yeah but, she's a woman." I was just like, "You don't know me." She was like, "Yeah, come on." And I suppose because I've had two male partners back-to-back. So, okay, and I did come out to her as gay. But I guess if I had turned around and was just like, "I'm bi," I don't know if maybe some of the 'laddier' people at the gym who were like "Oh, good for you mate!" but then also took a step back socially, would have just been cool with it? Another thing I fucking love when people tell you that they're 'cool' with you. “I wasn't asking. Thank you, but..." [LAUGHTER] "Yeah, I don't have a problem. We're cool. As long as you don't hit on me." Like, "Well, you're single right now aren't you?" "Yeah." "And how successful are you with your Bumble or Tinder dates?" "Ah, not great." "Yeah cool, so that shows you how attractive or unattractive you are. So yeah don't think that suddenly I'm going to be like, 'Oh my god! I'm going to see past all your toxic masculinity and just be really attracted to you." [LAUGHTER] No, doesn't work (like) that. Again, even before people knew or it was confirmed for them, I was still calling people out on homophobia, on sexism. I think I just never fit there. Because I'm a coach at the gym. So, they're (male customers) going to talk to each other. They're going to compare female bodies around each other or they're going to make really shitty comments. And I'm just like "Alright, lads. I think everyone here owns too much money to be so ill educated; to think that this is an OK conversation to have." And you just see them kind of shut down like "Ah we're just having fun." I'm like, "Yeah, okay, well, if you're having fun and you thought it was alright, let's invite these women that you're talking about into the conversation. Hey, ladies, we're having a really good chat over here. Do you want to join us?" I definitely use my position of being... it's a [branded] gym that I currently work at. So, it's group classes, it's loud, whatever. But I remember once there was a young lady walking past the door, and it's a big roll of doors in summer to get ventilation, and one of the boys wolf whistled. And I literally just stopped the music, stopped the clock and I was like, "I will not hesitate to chuck you out. How can you think that that is an okay thing to do? Because that young lady could have been... A, it's a dark street, she's walking home on her own. You have just absolutely added to this narrative for her that is unsafe. Or, this frustration or this exhaustion: 'Oh, great. I guess once again, I was not able to walk home on my own and not get harassed by someone'. And you think that's okay, but you don't understand that's her every day. That's her everyday experience. But also, she could have been a potential member, she might have wanted to join this community that we've built. That is very split down the middle 50/50 men and women. She might have been like, 'Oh, wow, look at this place. They're empowering women to explore the fitness and express themselves physically.' And then suddenly, she's just like, 'Oh, no, never mind. It's just another stupid meathead gym,'" And you're just like, "Oh, my God." So yeah, calling out probably one of the top athletes or one of the most popular people in the gym. And saying: "I don't care who you are, I don't care how much you earn, I don't care who you’re friends with, you will not be invited back to one of my classes if that's how you're going to act." And then deliberately turned around and, "Ladies, it is not my place to apologise on his behalf. But I'm so sorry that that happened in one of my classes. And I can guarantee that energy is not going to be coming back."  Well, everyone's been super well behaved since then. [LAUGHTER] But yeah, it's just- If you allow it. I would hate to think that someone did that to one of my sisters. And they don't have to be related to me for that to be a thing. You could just see every queer person, or every woman in that gym just seizes up like, "Ohhhh." It was horrible. In all other situations, because I've been in those situations where you've just witnessed nothing happen, and it just continues like, "Okay, all right, move along!" And "No, like, we need to learn that we created this... I'm going back to a rant, sorry. 'Cause I'm there, Black Lives Matter. In my opinion, it's not the role of women to break down sexism, it's not the role of people of colour to break down racism, it's the people who created these systems. So, it's us. It will be more powerful if someone who looks like me is the one who is, brick by brick, dismantling this wall. And then stepping aside and being like, "Free space, do with it what you will." I'm so much more comfortable with the concept of  all female, all queer, all POC, upper house, lower house, basically every single person in power, I would be a lot more comfortable if I didn't see a single white male face there. And currently I'm aware you see pretty much only white male faces. The only group of individuals that I'm scared to walk into a room with, I challenge myself every day I go to work, are straight white men. I am so much more comfortable with any other room, with any other demographic of human being other than them. And I know there's like a little bit of subconscious shame that goes around that. Because I know what I look like, I know what I represent for a lot of people. So yeah,I think the importance of being out, especially as like a bi male, even if you are married, even if you are in relationship with a cis-gendered individual, the opposite sex, who is straight or maybe not. I think the importance of kind of turning around and calling that out when the blokes are playing poker or playing golf or whatever, and they can turn around and the comments mainly like, "Yeah, that's not okay. I'm bi. I've dated men, if anything I was getting ready to settle down with the last relationship I had, who was a man. I just happen to have met my current fiancé and that's where we're at." But yeah, I think that's more powerful. There's little interjections of "Hang on." Just because we don't stand out or look like the way you think we are, I think it's... Have you heard of iO Tillete?

No!  

Okay, so he is a trans man. Back when I first discovered him, he did a TEDtalk before his transition, for TEDx, like a women's TEDx in Houston? I don't know. But he has run a project called the 'self-evident truths', where he took a picture of anyone who identified as anything other than 100% straight, he'd take a portrait snapshot. It's amazing and the TED Talk is amazing. It's called '50 shades of Gay'. Definitely worth watching.

I'll check that out.

Because it talks about the spectrum of sexuality. And it was back then when it was legal, still is I guess, in the US for you to lose housing, for you to be denied work if you were gay, or if you weren't straight, basically. So, he was saying, "but at what end of that spectrum do you become a second class citizen? Is it someone over here who has mostly heterosexual experiences, but only one or two homosexual experiences? And that could be like a thought, or a crush you had, that technically doesn't make you 100% straight anymore. And vice versa, is it over here, when you've had mostly homosexual experiences, but only one or two heterosexual experiences?" Yeah, he's very articulate, but he was basically saying, "You want to stop us being your firefighters, your teachers, your parents, your doctors, but you can't because we already are all those things. We are here, we are you already. It's just because some people aren't as visible and vocal, or because you think that they fit the norm, that we flount the radar in terms of discrimination or in terms of being comfortable." So, yeah, again, another good resource, for sure.

Thank you. I will look that up. You said coming out as bi is (the) thing you have to do again and again. You're currently with a cis-gendered male, do you feel that the fact that you're with a guy  affects responses you have when people learn you're bi? 

Yeah, it's because (of), I guess, my own active erasure. And even in the podcasts where I came out. Or I’m saying now that I'm gay because it's easier for people to understand. Because when I say bi, it becomes this whole narrative in their head, of disbelief or discrediting my experiences, my romantic experiences. They're like "Oh, X, Y, Z... because you're just undecided, or you're being selfish or whatever." But because I did kind of come out, and again I keep using the word gay as well. Or I kept using the word gay for a long time. When people then heard me talk about being attracted to another gender outside of male, they were a bit like, "Okay..." and like, this hasn't even gone into the conversation how attracted I am to more than one or two genders. For a lot of people, I think if I turned around "This is my new partner. Her name is so and so. And also, she's a trans woman." And people would be like "Hang on but she identifies and she looks like a woman, but I thought you were gay? Surely it would be the other way around? If you were going to be with someone who was trans, wouldn't it be a trans man? And what does that mean?" You see that meme of (a) computer algorithm... "Which one are you? Which one are you?" And you're like, "Oh, it's not which, it's 'Hi'. Just say hi to this person and introduce yourself and listen to their experience." So yeah, I think I haven't had a lot of experience in terms of correcting people. Because I went from coming out or expressing myself as gay, and then into two relationships back-to-back with men. So yeah, I do talk about my previous experiences. And I think I'm pronoun neutral quite a lot (of the time) when I'm talking about memories, people just either presume that I'm being woke, or that I'm talking about men. But I'm not all the time, you know. It's easier, I don't have to define for someone else and I feel like sometimes that's what it is. But I think also that, in itself, is a bit of an erasure of, or a lack of visibility. Yeah, I'm not the best advocate.

You said erasure quite a few times. So, you're aware of the term 'bi erasure'?

Yeah.

What does that term mean to you? I'm interested to see what people associate with the term.

No, I get it. I think, for me, it's I guess exactly what I've been doing in terms of, 'it's either easier for this to be explained this way that it's either A or B.' Because it's easier for people to understand that, because that's the concept of sexuality, I guess. My housemate has just finished watching 'Schitt's Creek,' and she brought up the point, "I love how they explored David's character. I love how that was handled. I love how it wasn't handled, effectively. It wasn't, 'Oh, my God, there's this character', from day one" And she was even saying for a very long time, "I mean, Is he gay? Is he not gay?" I don't want to give anything away- I was just like "Mmmm... [SHRUGS SHOULDERS] just watch!" And then she was like, "[MIMICS CONFUSION]...and then “Nah, he's not, some people are just very camp, very flamboyant. But then he just slept with her. And now he's sleeping with him..." And at the end of the series, she was like "That was really well done. I really loved that that's how that was perceived." And that's a great way to do it. And that watching shows like that helped me then express myself more. So, I would be comfortable to kind of express that.  I probably use gay less, and I probably say bi or queer. But sometimes, I use the umbrella term of queer as perhaps I should be using (the) umbrella term of bi, or bisexual. Because by not using that word, by not giving it the spotlight and giving the representation. It then erases it. And I've actually come across a lot of people since being in Australia, a lot of married couples, cis-gendered, male, female, married couples, have kids. And then as you get to know them more, dinner parties with people drinking and flowing, they're just like, "Oh, yeah, sometimes we'll invite a third person into our into our bed." And you're just like, "Yeah, cool, sweet, it's up to you." And I never even thought to ask, but I always presumed that it would probably be another female. And then I was somewhat shocked and then really excited to hear that it was another male. And here's this this suburban Dad, he's literally (the) poster boy for, 'This is what you're gonna do. You're gonna go to school, you're gonna get good grades, you're going to get married to your high school sweetheart.' "Yeah, and sometimes it's really cool to fuck dudes at the same time as my wife." And you're just like "This is awesome!" It's the fact that I was so shocked by that, and then vice versa, where you hear experiences of bisexual women. They're just experiencing it for the first time, they're allowing themselves to express, after a divorce or after a breakup or they're just, "You know what, we've been married for 30 years. Let's talk about it." Talking to my partner about it. He self identifies as gay. We were talking about the same thing, "Oh okay, it's very important to have open conversations, communications; how would you feel about this?" And he's expressing he has had sexual relationships with women as well in the past. He doesn't express a romantic desire. But it was like, "Wha if we did have… extend… ourselves sexually, how would you feel if the other people were women?" I never thought about it, but that feels like good to think about. Yeah, the idea of just opening up and it being people. "I like the way you talk about it, because it’s people." And I was just like, "Okay, well, how would you feel if they were…" And this was just pretty much my way of coming out to him, I guess, "How would you feel if they were trans?" And he was like, "Again, I've never really thought about it, but I don't feel adverse to that." And he even said, on his own, he accidentally discovered some porn that had like a trans man or a trans woman in there. And he was like, "It was fascinating to witness my response and to actually watch this." And then you know, having a conversation with him about the difference between sexualising something, fantasising something versus acknowledging existence and rightful place in your energetic transfer. Whether that's a romantic transfer, whether that's a sexual transfer, whether that's a platonic transfer, there's that energetic exchange between two humans. Unfortunately, what I think happens, especially in the the sex industry in different countries, where it's kind of like boys go out for, I don't know, a stag do. And because I'm in a different country, no one is gonna find out about it, let's play around, let's explore, this sex worker is quite obviously trans. But I'll just blame (it) on them and, "That's fine. You can do this. It's just the societal image of what you should or shouldn't be doing, if you are fitting to the norm.” So many people that I've come across, and that I'm just like, "Yeah, I've dated guys. Yeah, I've slept with guys." And we're just like, "Yeah I've slept with girls." I'm just ‘well, good for you!’ And then it's just brushed off completely. I mean, I know that that's what what we talked about (at) the very beginning. I'd love to see characters where they just are, and you see them, their love interest changes or there is no love interest, or they talk ambiguously about pronouns and their love interests. But yeah, it's, this is it! This is it. It would be nice to see more people feeling that comfortable, and feel that free and easy. Almost like they're saying, "Oh, actually, I'm lactose intolerant, so I won't have dessert tonight." It's like, "Ah, I didn't know that about you. Cool. Do you wanna order something else or we go somewhere else that does dairy free stuff, what do you want?” [LAUGHTER]

I'm interested to know what stereotypes or words or phrases you're aware of that are associated with the bisexual community. You've mentioned a few already, but can you name any for me or can you think of any? 

What's interesting when you're saying names, I was like, "Oh, I don't think I've heard any names." And now I'm curious to know if there are any terms that I just haven't come across that people will use even within our community because- like the queer community is great because we compare each other to like Pokémon cards, "No, you're a water type, you can't be water and psychic and fire and fighting, no get back in your bubble!" Yeah, I guess there's that analogy of being 'promiscuous' and being 'indecisive', being 'selfish'. I think that happens quite a lot, or being a 'charlatan.' Being: "Oh, you're very mysterious or you're unique." People thinking that there's that sexual 'prize' to it? "Oh, I slept with..." especially as I say, with women like "Oh, I slept with a bisexual woman." And I've heard it a lot from friends who have said the amount of times that they've been asked by their current partner, or a partner in the past, when they'd be comfortable to have a threesome. “Where we're gonna pick this guy up? 'You're into that let's go'” and the boys are like, "Oh no, with another chick! Ah fuck off" [LAUGHTER] "Hang on, how come I can't fantasise the idea of you kissing another guy, but you can over fantasise the idea of me kissing a girl? That's not how this works, buddy." And then you get people who, and I think unfortunately that is the minority, but they are the most vocal. Because then you get people who are just, "Cool. Please let me know if I ever say something wrong. Please introduce me to your community. Please feel free to express yourself however you wish." I love the fact that my partner and I can be out in public and I just see a very beautiful individual and I'm just like, "Wow, they're very attractive," or, you know, especially around like summer or Pride, especially when someone's just exuding confidence and openness and expressiveness. And I'm just like, "That person is hot. That makes them sexy." And my partner turns around: "Yeah, they are really sexy." Especially (with) him being black, as soon as he sees a black woman on the street just absolutely owning herself, he's just like: "She is hot." "Yeah, she is. She is owning it." And we're not wanting to go over and have sex with her. It's just like, "Wow, there is a human being who isreally owning everything they are about themselves." And I think it's great that you have a lot of female celebrities now who are coming out or not even coming out like, "Oh, this is a big thing." But it's "No, like, this is who I like, this is how I express myself. I don't need you to do this on MTV. I don't need to kiss someone in a music video, if you don't understand that. But at the same time, I also need to have the space to be able to do that if I want to." Like Janelle Monae's 'The way you make me feel', the music video for that, I was just like, "This is just great." it was just fantastic.

Where do you feel like your sexuality is most welcomed and accepted and celebrated? What spaces do you feel welcomed in?   

I mean this is going to sound cheesy, but my own space. I've spent so long disliking and wanting not to be this, that now I can create my own environment... Again, what I was saying about working with my clients. For me, the most important thing is creating an environment and an energetic exchange of empowerment and an open space where they get to express themselves, completely fully. So, when I say my own space, what I mean is whatever I'm putting out. When I come out to someone, when I correct someone, it's not an invitation for their approval. It's not a fearful thing. I think if you deliver your identity with, not even with conviction, like: "I am Wonder Woman, who the fuck are you?" Even just: "The sky is blue, I'm bi, would you like a cup of tea?" I think if you deliver it as if it's just another facet of your being, it's just another part of your personality. It's just another part of who you are as a human being, going through this experience. I think that's why I don't feel unsafe in places. There'll be places where maybe people don't know you. So, if you're on public transport, I probably wouldn't hold my partner's hand, for example, because you might just end up going through one suburb or someone gets on and that's it. That's just a shitty conversation you've now gotta have. Yeah, I don't feel apologetic at work, which can be a very masculine, toxic environment. Because I think especially in my classes, the energy shifts, I can feel it when people come into my class, they're even deliberately coming into my class. After I came out, we went from maybe like four or five queer members to about 25 in a year. And, basically, most of my classes have women or queer people in them. And it's just how straight men, they're like, "Wow, the energy in this room is amazing." You're like, "Yeah, because no one's judging you, no one's calling you, bro. No, this is an environment where you get to be yourself as well. You get to express your identity as a straight man as well, we're not going to judge you for being straight, we're just going to judge anyone in this environment being a dickhead. I don't care what your gender or sexuality is." So yeah, I think if you have that opportunity to create an environment, so with your friends. I've had a couple of incidences, I guess, where I felt a little uncomfortable, in (A)  groups of friends, where you look around like, "I feel like I'm the token 'other' character. We're all white, and pretty much everyone is coupled up, and I guess I'm the only queer person here. Or at least maybe out." I don't know. But that's uncomfort… that's just like, "Oh, maybe I just live in Australia." But yeah, in terms of comfort, I feel very comfortable expressing who I am. In almost every space I go to. And again, I think that's just a testament to how much of a bubble (I’m in), but also how much work Melbourne as a city has done. I'd happily walk down the street, walking hand in hand with my partner. There's no one space, I feel super safe here. Because I feel very comfortable, very safe, everywhere. And also, safe and comfortable enough to know that if I was confronted, and I did have an unfortunate experience, I wouldn't allow it to rock me too much. It'd be an unpleasant energetic exchange. But I'd be: "You don't have the power to uproot me and unsettle me. I've done too much work on this for that little mosquito comment to upset me," if that makes sense.