‘This isn't for your fucking titilation. This is just who I am.’
Pronouns - She/Her
Content warning - swearing
Names have been removed or redacted to protect anonymity.
How do you self-describe?
A Cis (gendered) Bisexual Woman.
And in terms of your sexuality, are there any terms that you feel you strongly align to?
Increasingly queer. It seems to cover where I'm at in terms of moving away from binary ism. Although I completely agree that bisexual doesn't have to mean men and women, it can just be more than one gender. Learning about your own language in your late 30’s is quite interesting. But for me, I feel like I've only really got my own queer community in the last couple of years. And that has been absolutely transformational. And that's something that has really positive connotations to me right now.
Are there any terms in regards to bisexuality (as an umbrella term) that you don't agree with?
No, I can't think of any. There's ones that I don't understand and don't apply to me, but that's fine.
I'm trying to think of something where I was like: 'Oh, I need to go and find out more about that.' I need to do some more work around Agender and the difference between Asexual and Aromantic and stuff like that. That's not really specifically what we're talking about here. But I think, like everybody, I've got stuff that I need to learn.
And when did you first become aware of your sexuality?
In terms of being attracted to boys, I had a very charming, non successful relationship with a boy in Junior school. I literally just carried his double bass around for about a year. And then he asked me out and I said, ‘No,’ and I don't really know why. He was like: "What would you say if I asked you out?’ And I'm like, 'I don't know! Don't actually reciprocate!" And then I had a charming disco in what (would be) now year seven with my first gay boyfriend, where he was increasingly gay. And I was just: "No, you will, you will be my boyfriend." And he asked me out with a charming line. "Oh, you're ugly, but you've got a nice personality." So probably not the worst decision to say no to that one - but still kind of crushed on him for a few years, despite the fact that he was just blatantly only interested in men. So he goes down in my record books as first gay boyfriend. And then it's probably from 13 onwards, between 15 and 16, really fancying more women. Watching a lot of 'This Life.' Daniela Nardini in 'This Life', made me want to be a lawyer and an absolute badass at that point. And more into sixth form. Starting to have the stereotypical, very intense friendships where you just suddenly decide to sleep together, cuddling on a sofa. But not actually doing anything. And then (it) wasn't until Uni that I probably properly slept with a guy and a girl quite quickly. So, the guy in freshers week and then slept with my mate because the guy that I fancied really fancied her. So I thought it would be a good way to get one over on him, and me and her. So me and this guy that I fancied started an Elvis Appreciation Society named by someone that he fancied. This is all very Warwick and university things. But then me and [my friend] just started making out all the time. And I ended up shagging her on my 20th birthday, that was fun. And my parents came to visit me the next day and I was absolutely hanging. So at that point, she'd asked me the night before, she said, "Oh, I thought you were straight." And I was like, "Yeah, no clearly not." And that was just a one night stand. But I think, for me, I would have said I was bi to any uni mates, not really anyone else. And it didn't really feel important, for a long time. It didn't feel important when I lived in France for a year, when I was 21. It didn't feel important when I was moving to London in my early 20s. It wasn't really until probably about 10 years ago, and I was like 27. And I moved away from quite a bland group of mates. I was literally hanging around with a bunch of estate agents when I moved to, sorry not estate agents, recruitment agents when I was in London. And I had a falling out with the central point of that social circle. I met [a friend] and I was like: "Oh, shit, yeah! This is what it's like when you're actually inspired and interested in your mates." And to start having nights out, or a social life, it's more reflective of what you're about, rather than just following a crowd. Because that's the Uni crowd that you follow down to London. Yeah, 10 years ago, I started online dating when I was 28.
Is that when your bisexuality became important?
Yeah, because I would label it at that point. I didn't dare go on a date with a woman for about two years after that. I think if you'd asked me then I would very much have said, ‘Yeah, I'll happily sleep with a woman but I don't really want to date one’. And I started to interrogate that a little bit more, about the fact that we're kind of socialised where it's much easier to date men, and far less scary. And it's really hard to unpack whether it was just a sexual attraction, or if I dismissed that for myself as having a relationship with a woman would mean so many other things. Because it's not as normative. But it's probably only as there's been more overt attacks on LGBT people that it's correlated with other kinds of increased awareness and activism about social justice. And the idea that if I'm not open about who I am, then it makes it easier for them to take rights away from people because they'll have fewer frames of reference and think that they don't know anybody who's LGBT, and like "yes, you do."
So actually, visibility has been important to you to help other people be visible?
Yeah. Again, it all feels really bound in (where) my social circles have been at. So I started hanging around with a very specific kind of gay guy crowd. And it was actually probably them dismissing me as an ally. That made me want to go: "Actually, no, I'm not here as an ally. I'm not here as your guest. I'm just part of the bloody rainbow as you are." And it was increasingly getting pissed off with being dismissed as an ally. It's like: "No, you don't invite me. This is my space as well." And then moving to Manchester was interesting, because it was very much 'l..G..btq'. Much more so than London, even though we've got really poor representation for lesbian bars or whatever, in Manchester. But also venues where you can't go in as a cis woman, and things like that. Which I think is fine if it's about a marginalised group. But it's not if it's just another place for cis guys to cruise. In terms of experience, I think I got the universal thing: "Am I bi enough?" Which is probably like the default question we should have for admission. Because I've never probably been 50% of anything. So it's probably been more 70% (towards liking) guys.
Do you feel that the fractions are important?
I used to, I don't anymore. I think I was bi before I was (inaudible). I don't think we should be putting standards on people.
Do you think there's an impetus, or perceived impetus, for people to prove their bisexuality?
Yeah. And obviously the invisibility of what can be perceived as a heterosexual relationship. I've only done that once. And thankfully, it was with someone who I think got that part of it and got the fact that they weren't dating a heterosexual woman, they were dating a bi woman. But yeah, I can imagine that. But it's something that you have to come to an understanding about where you're coming from, and why it's important. And why I would still be out, I've been out in the last two jobs that I've had. I've been part of networks in those jobs and both of them have asked me to write about my experiences as part of that. And I've worn Stonewall t-shirts at work and felt a bit hyper visible in that one. So it's like: "Hello, we just bought some t-shirts and bisexuals in the building." But also, in the job before that, I had a bit of a relationship with a colleague where it was very heteronormative. And we basically (used to) go out and get drunk and make out and hit on each other every six months, and then ignore each other in the lift the next day. So I think it was kind of a solidarity in the fact that she was the only other person who wasn't engaged at 25 and buying a house and getting a dog and we felt kind of like rebels together. So yes, credit to her, I don't know where she is now. I think that was the point where I was like, “Yeah, this is something that needs to be articulated.”
You’ve said that coming out has been part of your experience. Are you out to the most of the people around you?
I'm out on Facebook. So my dad and my brother are on that. They will have seen me post about bivisibility day, neither of them have ever said a word. I haven't had that conversation with my mum, but she's not on Facebook. My uncle is on Facebook as well. But I think she's come to an understanding of her own The last time we had a conversation about me getting with a partner, she said, "If it's with a guy or anyone else," completely unprompted, and I'm pretty sure my brother's fed that back. And she would say she's not homophobic, or bi phobic, however, she's forgotten a lot of the shit she says. And to be honest, it's complex. I don't think she's as clear cut in discrimination as a lot of people. It was a private school, and I was a day student, but there are a lot of boarders there. And because of my close relationships with all the gay guys, it became a de facto halfway house for those guys who needed a family. So she's always really supportive of them. I think when it comes to me, it has been more complex though, because she would always go: "Yeah, but if you have kids, they'll get teased. And how can you do that to kids?" and basically was very much into the 90's mandate that if you're anything other than heterosexual, you will not have a family. And she never remembers any of the bad shit she says. So that was a thing that was laid very quickly. But also, there will also be jokes about: "Oh, you know, men are terrible. It'd be great if you're a lesbian." So it's not consistent. It's really incongruous. I used the word 'queer' to describe a friend around the other day, and she didn't know what it meant, which is fine. My first awareness of queerness, as a kind of a tribal thing, was going to see my mate in Berlin about 15 years ago, where it felt very much like warriors, where everyone has their own little tribe. And I couldn't understand why the gays hated the queers so much and the queers hated the gays. And, at that point, [my friend], who's a trans man was trying to assert his rights to be on 'Gay Romeo', a dating website. And they said "No you don't have a penis, so you can't be on it." He managed to win that one quite early on. But yeah, that was the first time I had some kind of awareness of it's not just gay and lesbian, or bi, there's this whole other thing. Yeah, in terms of Mom, I don't think she'd have a problem with it. I just can't be arsed to have that conversation. And historically, it would always be: "Oh, I'll tell her when it's... I've had a serious enough relationship with a... to bring home.” Other than that, that's fine. Since I've been home and locked down, I've been really open about my relationships with men and she's laughed at them all. So that's really funny. I told her I was coming down for a hookup last time, and I got home and she says: "You look like you've had a good seeing to." [LAUGHTER] So yeah. I told her when I was dating a married guy, she was fine with that. She did say at the time when she was telling my Dad, "Don't tell your dad." and it was like: "No I'll save that for Christmas dinner." [LAUGHTER] He was in an open relationship. But yeah, I haven't cheated. I haven't been party to cheating since I was 18. When I kissed someone else's boyfriend to Robbie Williams, and she Facebook friended me the other day. So I think she's past it. [LAUGHTER] I still feel bad every time I go past that train stop.
So, in terms of hyper sexualization, is that my first time with [an ex-lover] was a threesome with another girl, just for fun. And then me and him started some form of open relationship off the back of that, but I felt there was a constant pressure to have another experience like that. And so we would be in sexual spaces together. And it was:"Oh, when are we going to do this again?" I was like: "Yeah, I'm open to it. But I'm also not going to manufacture it." It has to be an organic thing. It has to be based on attraction and fun, rather than some sort of arrangement or another thing to tick off the list. So that was a bit of tension where I was like, “Actually, this isn't for your fucking titilation. This is just who I am. And, we've got to work out our boundaries within our relationship.”
But did you feel like part of the relationship was him expecting that sexualization?
Yeah, because that's how it started. And it was fun. But, yeah, another situation like that didn't really come up.
The term 'coming out', what does that mean to you, personally?
Probably more of a private thing, just in terms of like an integration of different selves. And the fact that I'm probably about 80 to 90% the same, similar version of myself, regardless of who I'm with. I met people this weekend, and I told them I was bi straight off the bat. So it's something I'm referring to much quicker. I still get a bit of an emotional thing. It's not a dispassionate thing when I say I'm bi. So that's still a hangover or something.
What do you think you feel?
Just a bit of: "Oh, I'm saying something that's quite private." But probably less more so now that I've overtly been part of a couple specifically queer groups. So, as part of an activism one and part of a creative one as well. So just gratitude for the fact that there's a lot of people that wouldn't have come into my life if that wasn't a thing and it's really nothing to do with sexual partners or anything like that. But just in terms of the people that I'm surrounding myself with are far more aligned with my values and my idea of a good time and my idea of what's exciting and ‘Oh god yeah, the 'hets' aren't doing well at the moment at all!’ And I'm quite pleased to not be one of them. But have you seen 'Love is Gone'? The 'hets' are not ok. Toxic hetrosexuality all the way! Yeah, and the shift of percentages right now is probably a bit different just because I'd much rather be single than in a relationship that doesn't feel right. And frankly, I don't want to have to educate a cis boy. So in terms of the pink, the purple and the blue, the blue's on pretty fucking thin ice right now.
One thing I will say is, I think it's probably important to be recording this and it's embarrassing to admit, is that I probably have always had quite a binary view of it. Just because I think it's partly to do with my age and partly to do with my having my own shit to work out. Is that I tend to be attracted to very femme femmes or very masculine guys and not really androgynous (people). So it means that if somebody was like, "Oh, have you ever been with a trans person?" No, but I think that's to do with my own shit. Because it wasn't really something that was part of our experience as teenagers. But I'm aware of that as an unconscious bias. And it's important work to do. And I don't think we can just say, "Oh, I'm not attracted to trans people," or whatever. I think that's bullshit. But I am conscious of it showing up in preferences. And I think actually it's just me responding to conditioning versus actually me giving someone a chance. So yeah, so sexism, all that shit still shows up.
You've already spoken about the overt sexualization you have had from one particular cis male that you were in a relationship with. When you have told people that you’re bisexual, have you had any responses from groups or individuals that you'd like to talk about?
It's probably not anything overt. I think when I'm talking about working for that organisation where it felt like everyone was 25 and getting engaged and getting a dog. Probably just more as a lifestyle thing, I felt that there were parts of myself I couldn't bring to that conversation. And that's not due to any hostility or behaviour on their part. It's just together, they created this expectation of what normal looked like. So it makes it a little bit harder when you're the person that deviates from that. So bring your stuff to the table or your relationships to the table and all that stuff. So that's been my experience. I'm very lucky. I've never had any kind of overt homophobia. I've been targeted for other things, but not for that. And in terms of positive stuff, as I say, that's been the last couple of years. Just finding online spaces really. Yeah, just a shorthand of and taking the piss out of ourselves, and a real kind of camaraderie has been really important.
Then would you say that it's the queer community that is the space that you feel like you can celebrate your own identity?
Yeah. And it's mostly through Facebook groups. There's nothing more sophisticated than that. And not really translated into a lot of face to face hangouts, (with) individuals.
Do you think there are spaces for people like us to hang out?
Yeah, I mean, having said that, I have been in sexual spaces. Which are very queer friendly. So I've been going to Torture Garden and Sparkle House for around 8 years on and off. And seeing lots of different kinds of people having lovely times. I've seen people who look like me being treated like the belle of the ball as well, it's had a massive impact on my sexual confidence. Yeah, that's always been kind of kept with a side order of queerness rather than as the focus of it. But yeah, getting to know a lot of other bi people has been really, really helpful.
And just to talk again, about your experiences with that one particular guy that you dated. How did the realisation that you were being sexualised make you feel?
A bit manipulated. I mean, that speaks to a wider problem within the relationship where I felt like he was kind of working out his hang ups (on me). And yeah, I didn't feel like it was an accessible conversation.
And do you feel your gender affected that reaction it received from him or from anyone else?
I can speculate, I think a lot of the way he approached sex was really dominated by porn. Yeah, he seemed to be somebody who got his idea of what sex should be should be from porn.
As in from the media rather than actually speaking to a bi person?
Or from other partners who were like me who just read all the dirty books in the library, when they were 13 [LAUGHTER]. But cultivated a sexual imagination that wasn't built on that kind of visual thing. Yeah, that's speculation, per se. But I think that's definitely how it felt.
And when people have learned about your sexuality, has your either current or previous partner at the time affected how people responded?
No, I've never had anyone give me grief for that.
So for example, if you were in a heteronormative relationship but people knew you were bi?
Yeah, no. That's why I'm still on OkCupid for so long. Honestly, 'cos you could filter those ones out. You can have it as a question, ‘Would do you date a bi person?’ And I've just never said yes to anybody who said no.
I didn't know there was that filter.
If you're below 90% you're basically a tory and there's no point. Not that you don't get bisexual tools.
Are you aware of any words, phrases or stereotypes that have been associated with the bisexual community?
I mean, I've been making the same joke on bi day visibility about (how) I'm just gonna spend the day being ‘greedy’, reclaiming that one! That ‘it's just a phase thing’ was hammered home pretty strongly. ‘It’s a route to gayness.’ Obviously, you kind of work through a lot of stuff. It's hard to remember how you used to think.
I mean, the funny ones are brilliant.
What are the funny ones?
Bisexuals don't know how to sit in chairs properly. We've all got cuffed jeans. I'll tell you another thing, the queers are all fucking 'astronormative'! The amount of bloody astrology that I have to see on my bloody Facebook page! Yeah, we're well down to smashing the gender binary and hetero cis sexism. But go fucking go nuts for the astrology thing. That is my stereotype.
And how about any phrases or stereotypes or words that you feel may be associated with just a particular gender?
Obviously 'Unicorn' for women. So unicorn... the fact that you're more likely to be targeted on dating apps by couples wanting someone to join them in their relationship for sex. I don't know what the name for that is for a guy. I'm sure there is a thing.
I feel going to Manchester was brilliant because I just didn't meet anybody straight for two years. All the men that I knew or dated after, after my relationship there, were bisexual or gay. So no, I didn't date anybody who's gay but I did date bisexual men and I think all my male friends in Manchester are gay or bi, all the bi ones have children and had children with a woman. And either it's something that they've done earlier in their life and they're now happily settled or their relationship with a woman has ended and they've explored with men later in life. Which has been interesting. In terms of words or phrases. I think I really feel for the guys. I think (they) get more of the overt homophobia where anything that can potentially make them feminine, that misogyny that comes out in a way that it isn't there for bi women. Yeah, sex. If a guy has sex with another man, it's gross. A phrase that was around in the 90’s and has kind of died to death was ‘man who has sex with men.’ I'm probably a bit young to kind of get the context of that, but it's just kind of died a death. But in terms of the stigma, I think it's obviously still a lot bigger than that.
Why do you think that is? Do you think that is because of this idea of masculinity that still exists?
Anything about tenderness or sex between men just completely subverts the idea that- I think gay men face struggles I never will. I've never been attacked for holding hands with a partner down the street. There's a lot of history of things that continue to be massive problems. I think also, most of my bi phobia that I've experienced has been from gay men.
And can you talk about that?
So a little bit about what I was talking about (before). Questioning why women would be in gay spaces or queer spaces, being dismissed as an ally rather than a part of it. The notion of gold standard, the idea that you can only be gay if you've never slept with a woman.
So my housemate has slept with far more women than I have. But he chooses to identify as gay rather than bi and we shouldn't be telling people who they are, but for me it doesn't feel right to call myself straight, even though that's where most of my relationships have been. With a guy anyway. And just quite a rigid view of what's allowed or what's not.
More and more people I've spoken to seem to feel like there's a: "you're either this, or you're this" (mentality) in terms of straight or other? Do you feel that it's a thing?
It depends who you're talking to, but obviously, but people want you to have made up your mind and fluidity and uncertainty, I think, rattles them. And I think I'm definitely getting queerer as I get older. Yeah, being static probably unnerves people. And they want to put you in a box, because it's a natural human response to want to do that.
Do you think labels are helpful?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think if it helps you find your tribe, it helps you find an understanding of yourself. I think it's pretty naive to think that we're in a position to get rid of them. I think that's probably a sign that oppression is less of an issue than it was, but oppression isn't going away. Right now. I'm seeing a regression of some of it. I did grow up in a time when Section 28 was a thing. So the idea that any homosexual lifestyle was never going to be promoted. And I had a German teacher who was very clear that he was very happy about that. So that's not that long ago, that's 20 years ago. The labels, I think, still serve a function. And that anything that can exist will exist, and we should just go by what has resonance for people. And it's not for me to go "You're not that."
What do you understand by the term Bi Erasure?
So I've got a lot of friends who've been in long term relationships with men who struggle to assert themselves as bisexual because they're perceived to be straight. So if they're in parental groups, the idea that it would just be assumed that you'll be straight as part of that. Your workplace will assume that you're straight. It doesn't really allow for much nuance or room within that. As a single person, I don't really have a lot of that.
Do you feel like if you're presenting heteronormative and in a long term relationship, that it is reasonable to say that people make an assumption of your sexuality, depending on the gender of your partner?
Yeah. And I've never had a longtime girlfriend, so I haven't really tested that one out. Yeah, but that's the assumption.
How about visibility of bisexuality, say in mass media? What do you feel about that?
Getting there, it's still pretty shit.
Do you remember any experiences where you've seen a bisexual person on something in the media?
There was a bisexual on Channel Four, where she just kind of played into all of the cliches, she'd split up from a girlfriend and was just checking on with everyone and seems to be flip flopping quite a lot.
I think it's not particularly helpful. It's kind of what we've had for sort of 15-20 years. So yeah, if you want a lovely positive one. You get Kristen Bell's character from ‘The Good Place’. Where there's a massive love story with her and a dude in it. But it's just quietly acknowledged that she's massively into women as well.
Apparently... ‘Crazy Ex Girlfriend’?
Yeah, it's not a plot thing, man. Oh! 'Getting Bi'. Yeah, there's two stories. Two coming out stories in that show. I mean, the whole thing is just a masterpiece. The first season is hard to watch, cuz you just get to see someone treating themselves very badly. But it's a mental health archive of four seasons. It's like a 50 hour movie. And there's two of them. So there's a guy character that comes out as bi and he has a bi anthem thing. And then later in the series, there's a character who was previously presented as straight and who just has a relationship with a woman. And then what shows the kind of progress, and I know something that has definitely been a game changer for a lot of my queer mates has been ‘Schitts' Creek’, which is predicated on the basis that it's a comedy where there is no homophobia. So, they talk about sexuality, and at 1 point one of the characters clarifies their sexuality, but there's no kind of like: ‘these are rural people, so they're going to be homophobic towards you’. And they just kind of show what it could look like. Just where our relationships allow us to progress without that as a barrier.
Can you give a particular example of a time that you felt like you could be celebrated or celebrate yourself?
So I went to an amazing gig at the start of this year (2020)- where it felt like it was gonna be the start of the best year ever. [LAUGHTER] -called 'The World is on Fire'. It was at Islington Chapel. And it was just a culmination of every kind of experience I've been building up over the last few years. Some amazing poets, some amazing representations of people outside conformity, and all those ways. I was just like, "Yeah, I wouldn't be here without all that." So that was a really lovely night. In terms of people have asked me ‘what books have you read about queerness and how has that informed it?’ I haven't read a single nonfiction book on it. My cultural awareness has become much more for other things. But I want to read more Judith Butler stuff. So she's an academic. She has been in the news this week, because she put JK Rowling back in a box. Charlotte Cooper's the other person who does this, where they talk about the fact that being fat and living in a larger body is a queering of the normative body, and so there is a queer element to being in a bigger body. So that's something that I'm really interested in finding out a bit more on because people do sexualize you in a large body and then you get over sexualized or fetishized at the other end of the scale. Okay, so compound that with my bisexuality and that kind of plays into that a little bit. Yeah, so that is something I want to learn a little bit more about.
Amazing. Do you have anything else you want to chat about?
Obviously, Intersectionality (is the) way forward. If this can be one of the identities where people can see you as a person rather than a trait then that would be amazing.
So one of my jobs was promoting the world's biggest sex survey six years ago. So, if you look at N.A.T.S.A.L, it's supposed to be the biggest British survey of British sexual attitudes and lifestyles. So, if you want to get a benchmark of, I mean, it was six years ago now. And it's really primitive, I think.
Is this the 2014 one about the huge spike in people identifying as being attracted to more than one gender?
Yeah. But they couldn't deal with trans people within that because of the sample size.
Seriously?
Yeah. So it had 10,000 people, but they didn't ask any questions about gender variation. But probably the thing I took from that was just the idea that everyone thinks that particularly if you're bi, you're really hypersexual. Average number of partners is like way lower than people think it is, Nobody's having as much sex as they think!
That's kind of a voyeuristic element, isn't it? Everyone else is seeing what everyone else is doing?
Yeah. But to have over 10 partners is considered quite rare. And I think metrosexual London's quite... I'm just over that, and I've had lots of different weird kinds of fun - But my mind number is really low.
You've just been told someone is going to make a show about bisexuality. Is there anything that pops into your head about fair representation in theatre?
It's a tricky one. But if it's about doing the work now to make sure it's not just a white middle class representation. And I say that as an hypocrisy adding to that.
And if you're talking about 'coming out' realising that's got a lot of cultural privilege to it. So the idea that for a lot of people it won't be safe for them to come out at all. Economically, these factors and things like that, so it's all work that you would do anyway. Some people make out: "Oh, why didn't you say anything before?" So it's completely legit to go: "No. This isn't something I could articulate." So, this just extends on to the fact that three quarters of bisexual women end up with a man. And part of that is to do with socialisation, part of that is about what's expected, but also because nobody initiates. [LAUGHTER].
So, I've always been very, very nervous and awkward on dates with women. Even going down from looking up at the end of the date to looking down going: "Who leans in? Who does that? Weird!" So that's probably why more of my experiences are in the realm of: "I'm pissed. Let's have sex!" [LAUGHTER] Somebody I know was offering workshops on women that fuck women. Because if it's something you're coming to later in life, you're learning how to have sex again. From a starting point.
Friends who've got that experience, like great at kissing, great. Full on sex, no idea how to do the bit in the middle. [LAUGHTER] What that looks like. And yeah, that's, obviously there'll be people who could speak to overcoming that, but I just thought that was really funny.