‘I had to search long and hard to find my flag.’

Pronouns: she / her

Content warning: None

Names have been changed and redacted to protect anonymity

How do you self-describe?

I don't know if I do self-describe, I self-describe as me. I'm just a me. It's a spectrum thing, isn't it? Probably the closest to the recognised phrases of acceptable definition is pansexual. But yeah, I don't know. That's not how I describe myself, that's how somebody else said they thought I was. And then, yeah, that's probably the thing.

But do you feel aligned to that term, pansexual? Do you feel it matches what's going on for you or is there another word that you feel does kind of match it closer?

I don't think there is another word that matches it closer. I think that's the closest thing that I found. But I think it's very much a human-by-human basis. Yeah, so 'pan' seems closest to that. And it's very much a mental attraction, primarily, and then potentially a physical one afterwards, but not always. So, I don't think there is another term for that beyond pan. And ironically, my nickname for ages was 'lady pan'. Before it was even a concept in my brain.

Are there any terms within the Bi+ umbrella that you strongly disagree with, or don't particularly like, for any reason?

I don't think there are actually. I think, again, it's more in the delivery. I think if people choose to describe in that way, then I don't have a problem with that. If somebody throws one of those terms at somebody as an insult or put down, then any word is a problem. So, I think it's about the ownership of the language, really.

And what do you associate with those terms, bi, pan, queer? Let's stick with pan because that's how you identify.

Yeah, and it's really odd. I don't know. It's about people and I think I, as a person, I'm about people. So that's why it sits there, that kind of sliding spectrum of who is attractive and how. And for me, that term is about personality and intellect and kindness and caring and compassion, rather than a mighty fine ass. And in fairness, it's not even a thing that I knew existed until a friend of mine who is now.... phew! This is tricky because [my friend] has female and male personalities within their makeup and was transitioning, but didn't. So I was out with the female presenting version of [my friend] one night and they said "Oh, I just always assumed you were Pan". It's like "Oh, okay, so I have to go do some research now". And at the time, I was like, "No, no, no, I just like boys dinnae?". And then I stopped and I thought about it. And I was like "Actually that's not necessarily true." I certainly prefer a man in the bedroom, I think. But in terms of companionship and partnership, women are generally more what I go for that way. So yeah, dunno. I don't think there's a phrase for that. It's a 'me.' It's me, innit?

Does that feel good, to say 'pan' for you? 

Again, that's a tricky one. It feels useful in that more people understand that. But equally, generally speaking, (it’s) not really everybody's business. So, if I use it, ironically, I tend to use it more when I'm dealing with the young people that I work with. Because they will come to me and go, "I think I'm gay," or "I think I'm bi or I think I'm this." And it's quite easy for me to go, "Well, you know, this is me, this is how I identify. So, you're safe here. Don't feel like it's going to be a big shock, or scare, because, you've known me for however many years, and it's never occurred to you that I wasn't straight." But then that's kind of always how I felt. So, at one point, I felt like it was straight and at one point it, now, I know that there's a different term for it. But I don't really think that changes. So that's how I feel about it.

And when did you first become aware of your sexuality?

Of the flexibility of it, you mean?

Yeah, like you said before, "No, I just like guys, actually, no, there's more to this." Can you remember what age you were?

The real fucking kicker about being this thing that is pan, as people understand it, is by the time you realise how attracted you are to people or how attached you are to people in that way, they've probably become quite a big part of your life. And if they don't feel the same way, you're essentially shitting on your doorstep. You can go: "Yes, I quite fancy you and would like..." and they go "No," and then you go "Okay, so no, that makes friendship really tricky now."

‘And what do we do now’?

Yeah! So I've just kind of always realistically gone... It's just nice to have that connection with somebody and to feel safe with somebody and feel loved and cared for. And that's why Anne Summers was created. [LAUGHTER] Do you know what I mean? And because I wasn't really aware of it, as a definition, as an understanding, until much more recently, it never really kind of occurred to me to push anything else. Do you know what I mean? To kind of make a play in any direction?

Has coming out been part of your experience? You just said before that you tell the young people that you work with, but in terms of your family and friends?

I mean, not my family. But that's because my family are my family, and they think being enlightened is going "Have you got a man yet?! Or have you got a woman? It wouldn't be a problem. You're running out of time." Yeah. So despite the fact, with all my health conditions, the chances of me being able to have kids in any way, they still, I still get that. So no, I wouldn't. I wouldn't cross that bridge until I came to it. And even then, I'd probably just go "Hello, this is so and so." Because you know, the other thing they'll do is "I always knew, I always knew! [LAUGHTER] It's what happens when you get your (hair) cut like that, everybody thinks you're a lesbian." These are all things, legitimately, that I've had. But no, I'm not closed about it. It's not something that I avoid telling people specifically, apart from my family. And it's just not something that I talk about, really. It's just who I fancy or want to be with, or I'm connected to, is my business. And if it comes to a point when it affects other people, then it becomes their business. And (I’d) say that probably more of the young adults that I work with are aware of it than any other group of people in my life. And that is purely because it is a useful, safe moment of sharing that enables them to to feel like they're in a safe place, and they can get what they want off their chest. So, it's a useful tool in that sense. That sounds really crass. 

And again, it's that sense of vulnerability. It's that sense of going "Well. You know, if this is what you're worried about. This is why you don't need to be worried about it here. This is how when you say 'I don't know what people will do. I don't know what they did.' I can tell you, because I've been there." Or "I know that, I know that feeling. I know that moment." But you know, there is a whole generation of young people that still feel the need to come out. I remember one young lady I work with, to say, one young woman that I work with going "Can I have a word with you?" And pulling me off to one side to go: "I just wanted to let you know that I think I'm bisexual." And I was like "Okay, great. Thank you for trusting me with that information. Do you need some help with something?" She was like "No, I'm just telling people so that I feel like I'm alright with it." And it's that thing of so you feel like other people need to be alright with it for you to be alright with it? Just breaks my heart. The labels, the names, the descriptions are useful because they give us a common language. But I don't feel like I should have to step into it publicly and claim it, to declare it. I never had to do that when I felt like I was straight. 

What do you think the term 'coming out' means to you?

I think it's like stepping into a rainbow spotlight and going 'Dah, dah! I'm here!" [LAUGHTER] She says wearing the most rainbow jumper that ever existed.

You picked that outfit today for this. I love it, I'm here for it.

 Yeah, so I think it's that. And I thinkif coming out was purely about being able to celebrate who people identify as, who they are. That would be great. But it's not. Coming out seems to be almost as much about how (other people take it) and that takes some of the power out of the situation for me. 

How it's perceived by other people?

Yeah, from my experience, people don't come out primarily and solely so that they can be out and proud. They come out so that they can explain that thing to mom or help Dad understand that, or get grandma's head around that. It's as much about other people's requirements to understand. And actually, I don't want grandma knowing what I'm doing in the bedroom, or who. [LAUGHTER] I say this coming from a family full of racist homophobic bigots. So, I mean, there's a distance anyway. But I suppose in my personal setting, coming out in that way would definitely be the wrong kind of fireworks. And I don't need that shit. They're not massively in my life anyway, and I certainly don't need hate piling on top of it. 

Have you had any responses from individuals or groups regarding your sexuality?

I mean, apart from [my friend] who got there before me. [LAUGHTER] It was just wonderfully:"Huh, I just assumed." Yeah, there's a couple of partners that I've had that have been kind of: "Yeah, that makes sense." Primarily, the nice stuff has been from the young people who've gone "Well, thank fuck, it isn't just me. Thank god I know somebody who is different like I'm different." Because everybody that they know is or at least is presenting as straight, down the line, so then they feel like an odd one out. I mean, I've always been a fierce fucking ally, even before I had a label, my slide on the spectrum. So, I just don't tolerate that shit. Just that shit I've had. I've done workshops on transgender terms, terminology and understanding for youth theatres. Because I know I've got people in there that are struggling with that. And I haven't, at this point, publicly dated someone of my own sex in the same way that I've publicly dated men. So, I haven't necessarily encountered that side of it. But I would like to think that (inaudible) would be told where to get off. And I have intervened when I've seen other people being on the negative end of that. People are scared by what they don't understand. And they forget, because they're so scared of what they don't understand. They forget that, actually, it's not their fucking business and it doesn't matter. They're just so scared by "Oooh" of it, that everything else goes out the window.

So you say that your own responses that you've had yourself have been mostly positive? 

Yeah. I've been very lucky.

Have you had anything bad?    

I've had a couple of parents who have gone: "What are you doing telling my daughter that that's a thing? Why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? And why are you calling my son Hannah? That's not his name." And I've had parental panic, and in the end, the way to talk them around is to go "Look, I don't know what your child is feeling. But primarily, as long as they feel safe, and we can understand these things, then surely that's the best way forward. And if it's a phase, like you're so convinced it's a phase and you're absolutely convinced they're gonna grow out of it. Why make their life of misery for however long this phase lasts? If you've got a real problem with it, but you think it's a phase and they're going to grow out of it, just give them a bit of support while they work through it and they'll be out the other side in no time." Hopefully, by the time they realise that that's not a fucking thing. [LAUGHTER] They've got used to having a son identifying as a daughter, or a gay kid.

In terms of people's response from finding out how you identify, have you had any negative responses yourself?  

No. Nobody seems surprised. So then I suppose I am always very much about people.  

In what sense? That you pick the ‘right people’ to tell?

Yeah,I'm a very tactile person as it is, regardless. Whether that's male identifying, female identifying, I'm very close, loyal, regardless, and I'm a ridiculous flirt. In every and all directions that will play. [LAUGHTER] I am a brilliant flirt. But yeah, I am terrible. I just enjoy it, it's a sport. But again, that's weird, because it's not about physical attraction. I like somebody who will play. So, I look back at it now. And that's just my brain going "Who in here is comfortable playing with this side of me?" And finding it. So yeah, that's probably why people aren't surprised. I think people are more understanding of the 'regardless of gender' aspect than they are of the 'regardless of physical' aspect. They kind of understand the kind of bisexual bit of it more than they understand the not physically being attracted to somebody. That bit seems to puzzle people more. Particularly the people that I ended up with. If they're like "Well you know, I've got a proper dad bod or I've got this or I've got that and it's nobody ever finds me attractive." It's like "Well, in the nicest possible way, it's not about your arse, your belly. It's about this bit. [POINTS TO HEAD] This is what I find attractive. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy what that bit can do." And I frequently do. I do enjoy what that bit is doing. Yes, fair enough, across a crowded dance floor I was probably never going to spot you. Because that's not what I'm looking for. That's why I don't like fucking dating in nightclubs and necking on in nightclubs and pubs. Because it does nothing for me. There's a whole fucking room of blank people. Everybody else is obsessed with cleavage and legs and tits and teeth and and I'm just like, "I do not know anything about any of these people." [LAUGHTER] It does nothing. Very confusing. ‘Cuz when other people are like: "Oh, look at that. Ooh Look at him. Ooh look at her, duh duh duh." And I'm just like "Nice dress. Yes." [LAUGHTER] I just can't. But as soon as I click with somebody then I start to see those things. But they come into secondary focus?

Okay.     

And as soon as there is a part of somebody that shows up that I don't click with, all of that stuff starts to drop away. So, it's that standard thing isn't it, if you're out on a date and somebody's shitty to the waiter, they're probably a shit person. Judge somebody by how they treat the person with the least power in the room. And I can be getting there and I can be really enjoying it and I can be starting to see the twinkle and the smile and all the rest of it, and then they're shitty to the waiter. I'm like "Nope, it's all gone. All of that's gone." 

Yeah, I get it. 

It comes into a kind of secondary focus. Once I get to know, and get to develop feelings for the person.

Do you think your gender affects how people respond to you about your being a pansexual woman? 

I think that there are parts of me that clash with what people expect of my gender already. So, I think that's probably just one of those things where they go "Right, okay. It's another thing." I don't know how much of my gender I identify with, or any gender. I don't think gender is something that physically… what's the word I'm looking for? [GESTURES] Physically does a ham dance. Physically defines beyond the difference, beyond the flitty difference. [LAUGHTER] I still think there's a lot of gender stereotypes or gender expectations that fit with me anyway. The general expectation now seems to be that I shall be perpetually single. Do you know what I mean? I got this far, I don't need a man. No, you're right I don't. I think there's a different feeling, certainly in the media about bisexual or pansexual women than there is about bisexual/pansexual men. And I think that's probably because you get a lot of lesbian porn and lots of straight men just go straight to: 'lesbians necking on, innit?' So, they can't be trusted by it because they probably had a wank. Whereas if it's the other way and it's men, then "Well, that's not a thing, is it?" They've not had a wank to it. You can’t get it on Pornhub, you have to look at a different site. [LAUGHTER] So, I think there's a there's a certain glamorization of bisexual and lesbian women, because of that male gaze that is more interested and not necessarily interested in a positive way, in the idea of that side of the equation. And therefore slightly kinder than it is generally to the men that I know in my life that are gay or bisexual.

Are you aware of any words or phrases or stereotypes that are associated with people who identify as Pan, Queer or Bi?

I mean, greedy is one you get a lot innit. Greedy, you just want a bit of everything. It's a phase. The insults that I'm aware of around it tend to be around it being a case of indecision. You can't make your mind up, or that you just want everything. So, you're either indecisive, or you're greedy. And the assumption that if you are bi particularly, then you fancy everybody all of the time, regardless of their 60-year-old beer belly hanging out the jeans. It's just it that is the assumption of greed. That they will forget that they don't fancy all of the opposite gender all of the time, but because you're bi you must. More than anything, the thing about pansexuality is that the biggest slur, and this is a bit controversial, apologies, about being pan, is that "Isn't that just being bi?"  So I've had that a few times. "I thought that was bisexuality, what's pansexuality? What's the difference?" And because people, on mass, will not understand a lack of physical attraction as a primary driver, that it just doesn't compute. "Just call yourself bi and stop being ridiculous."

Really? Have you had that kind of stuff thrown at you?

Yeah, not in an aggressive sense. Not necessarily in the same tone that I just delivered it. But in a bar having a few drinks with mates whatever. "Oh, just call yourself bi, don't be ridiculous man."

Now, the question originally says 'what do you understand by the term 'bierasure'?', but I'm going to change it to 'panerasure'. Sounds like an 80's pop band.    

Doesn't it! It sounds like a really dubious cocktail.

What do you understand by that term? I'm gonna say 'erasure', particularly for pansexual people. 

It's a lack of visibility and representation. I don't think I've ever seen an openly pan character on TV or in a film. I've only recently started to see openly bi characters.

Where?

Mainly American trash, to be honest. Mainly the kind of stuff that you get on 'Made for Netflix' stuff. And there's a Spanish TV show called 'Elite', which is about a posh private high school where three students from a working class background have got scholarships because of some accident on a building site somewhere. It's very convoluted. But that's within a setting of 25-year-olds playing 17-year-olds. The majority of whom have got more money than sense and are being adventurous with the poor people. But at least it was some sort of presence on one point. I think there's a point where there's three of them end up in a ‘thruple’. This is a bisexual male, a straight male and a straight female. And that becomes a strange little arrangement. But that was kind of the first bit of representation I've seen, I've never seen any pan representation.   We're still very much in an era where gay male representation generally tends to be either the first guy that ends up dead or the murderer. There's no in between, it's very rarely an inbetween. So, I think it's that papering over those preferences in media, in literature, in press, in TV and film. And even to some extent magazines, that's probably the least pushy way to get some mention of that kind of thing into teenage magazines or whatever, and just get that vocabulary and that out there. I had to search long and hard to find my flag.

Really? Did you get the bi flag instead?

Yeah, the bi flag kept coming up.

They're really different. And it's a really beautiful flag.

And so as pansexual, I get put in the bracket of bisexual and then as bisexual, well, we're all pretty much ignored anyway. So, I'm like a subcategory within a category of ignored people. [LAUGHTER] 

In the box, on the shelf.

Yeah, I'm the little matchbox inside the bigger matchbox inside the back cupboards. That's pretty shit. I mean, it doesn't get to me in the way that I've seen it get to other people. Because I've spent nearly forty years now going "Actually there's very few people I give a fuck about what they think". But it's more important to me in the sense that I know that there is a generation of people who don't know that they're okay. And if seeing themselves reflected back to them on TV in a positive light, or just a human light. Nobody's perfect, it doesn't have to be some godlike fucking character, just a human light or represented in a flag or a sticker or on a fucking tick box form. "Are you gay, straight, other?" Gay, straight, other, prefer not to say that's your four boxes.

How do you find it when people go: "Oh, just say your bi."? (Bearing in mind we are) advertising this as a bivisibility project and using bi as an umbrella term, does that annoy you? Us going "I'm calling it bi, but it also means all these other things," how does that make you feel? 

I think it's a useful definition for other people. But I think the individual strands of it need to be acknowledged. I think it's really important. Because even when you put out the shout out, "Well, I'm not bi, I'm pan, Is that still?..." And then you (said): “Yeah, one plus gender.” Fine. Okay. But I don't think we can get as far as acknowledging pan and all these other separate little subcategories till we've got bi visibility in the right place. You know, it's taken gay and lesbian visibility years to be, I won't say accepted, because I don't feel like it is accepted yet, but acknowledged. This existence is acknowledged as part of a spectrum of things. So, we've got that far. Now we need to kind of go down into those subcategories and bi is the next most visual, I think. But at the moment, if you see a woman with a woman or a man with a man, you think 'lesbian,' or 'gay', (you) don't think ‘bi’. And then, certainly, from that point, even if we've got as far as going gay or bi, being pan wouldn't cross that. There's never going to be a visual tick. It's never going to be somewhere where people can look at you and go "Oh, that's what she is. That's what he is." With bi visibility, you can't look at a couple and your automatic thought, I would say in my lifetime is never going to be "Oh, bi, or maybe gay. Bi or maybe lesbian." It's always going to be "lesbian, maybe bi" at best. And until we've got that far, then the small definitions. Fuck, we don't stand a chance. [LAUGHTER] 

Going back to stereotypes and the words and phrases questions. Do you think any of those (stereotypes) particularly stick to one particular gender? 

I mean, the visual stereotype of a woman with short hair and dungarees is very much: 'Short hair and dungarees, very much screaming lesbian.'

Masculinized, really. Like ‘butch’?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, very much leads to the butch. If you put short hair and dungarees, it becomes a twink I suppose, the other way doesn't it? It's really interesting that the same physical description  masculinizes a feminine form and feminises a masculine one. 

Yeah, it's funny that isn't it? It's like (dipping) a toe into the pool of androgyny.

Potentially, but it doesn't remove gender. So,so it's not really androgynous in that sense. So, I think there's a lot in the way people describe stereotypes that is really unhelpful. I mean, another of (my) mother moments. I have amazing hareem jeans with big, bold embroidered flowers on them, they're thick, heavy denim, low drop crotch. And my mother "Oh, they're ugly, they're the ugliest things. Nobody's ever gonna love you if you look like that. I can't tell you for a man or a woman." 

I'm sorry.  

So this is why I've got to this point, "Okay, nobody's gonna love me like that, then I'm just going to spend some time loving myself and I'm alright with that. And I don't want somebody that loves me because I wear sensible jeans. That's not the kind of love that I'm in for thanks."  It might be sufficient for you, but I don't want denim jean-based love, thanks. And as humans, what we do is judge, we look at what we see. And we fill in the gaps with assumptions that are based on things that we've learned or things that we've seen ourselves. And that's why stereotypes will always be there. And that's the same reason that they are as helpful as they are unhelpful. What we need them to do is to stop being the point of definition. We need to stop going "I have made a judgement based on what I have seen. And I'm gonna act on that judgement." By all means, assess, make some assumptions to allow you to move forward, but don't let them stop you. And that's where stereotypes, descriptions and words become an issue. Because that's when they become weapons of hate, rather than paths to understanding. 

Thank you, that's great. 

That was very profound, wasn't it? [LAUGHTER]

Well, this is the thing, right? You look at, this is a weird sidewards jump into the witchy side of me, You look at tarot cards, the major arcana tarot cards are stereotypes. So, the Empress is loyal to her friends and she's maternal, and she trusts her gut. That's a really fucking useful stereotype. That is a stereotype I can identify with. But the other side of that is that she can be occasionally over emotional or allows her emotions to control too much of her judgement. Again, those are useful stereotypes. They are hundred years old stereotypes. And when you use them in a reading, you use them to find the person or people that you're talking about. You go "do you know somebody who is quite maternal who has this, who has that?" And you can pinpoint them in your life from the qualities of their character. Not from the fact that she's carrying around a big shield and a floaty dress. The stereotypes are based on personality traits, that's a much less damaging, much more useful type of stereotype. And it's existed for hundreds of years, we've just become very much surface, 'because that person dresses like, they must be this.' And the fight that we've got at the minute is, you've got the people that go... this is going off in a very big tangent, people that go "That person has a different colour skin to me, therefore they must be an immigrant." Against "That person speaks three different languages and has a degree in medicine and is now my doctor." But once you've had thought A; people struggle to get to thought B. And it's the same with short hair and dungarees. Same with plaid shirts and jeans. Or short sleeved brightly decorated shirt: that must be a gay man.  

So this is why I have such an argument with stereotypes. Because I think there are those personality based, much more accurate, much more useful, much less damaging than the type of stereotypes that are forced on us by mass media. And by generations before us who aren't necessarily finding it easy to adapt or understand. It was never homophobia when I was a kid, you just didn't see it. It wasn't on the news. I've got gay old friends that will tell you that there was, and that sense of privilege as well is a really difficult one to get your head around when you're in the position of privilege. You've never seen anything other than that, so why? And the stereotypes in the language and the derogatory language and the aggression come from those places. Harried misinformation and an assumed sense of threat rather than an understanding of individual.

Making an assumption instead of asking or looking into it.   

Yeah, that thing around pronouns. Bless, I work with a wonderful group of older ladies. And they were like "Well, what do we say? How do we know if that person wants a she or a he?" You ask. Just make it a standard question. So we've put it on the membership forms. ‘What pronouns would you like?’ Just there. And they are over the fucking moon because they feel like they're all enlightened. And I swear down the day somebody takes the 'they' box, they're gonna have a fucking party. [LAUGHTER] But just because they're trying, do you know what I mean, and then you get other people that just won't. And the temptation there is to go "The Daily Mail readers... don't want." But that in itself -

That's a stereotype in itself.

Yeah. See? And that is something that I have to go: "No. Not all of them, that one particular one? Yes." The way that they dress, or the way that they act isn't necessarily a sound judgement of a group of people. Unless they've all got sticks, lighting torches and pitchforks, then it's fairly safe.

Are you able to give an example of where you felt your sexuality was welcomed and accepted?    

Apart from telling you, you mean?

That's nice to know that this is celebrating, it's amazing. 

Yeah. I mean, my housemate, we talk about it sometimes when he's drunk. Take away he's a 24-year-old gay man, who isn't really a big one for deep philosophical talking, until you get to 3:30 in the morning, and you've had a few drinks, and then all the love in the world falls out of him. So yeah, talking to him about it was just lush. And talking to you about it. I mean, there have been particular people who have been just really open to all sides of me. Whether that be mentally, emotionally, physically, sexually,. And that's a really freeing feeling, to just be like, actually, in this moment, I am 100% safe to just say, do ask, feel what I want. So some more moments like that would be lovely. 

It's not more of a space that you feel that you're welcomed and celebrated in. It's more of certain people that you surround yourself with?

It's the people, it's not a specific space. It's the kind of bubble that they create, I think. And it's odd, cuz I've got some very Christian friends, I've got some very Catholic friends. Again, those kinds of stereotypes where you'd expect less support and more judgement, or conversion. And, actually, it's not the case for those individuals. They are beyond that stereotype. And they create a safe bubble. And the nicest thing is when it's almost when people forget, because it means it's not a thing.  So I'll be talking about somebody more and more. Usually,talking about a woman more and more and more, and then they'll go, "Oh, god, yes. We'll go on then ask her out." And then I'm like "Nope!" [LAUGHTER] [Pulls a gesture] Like a boiled egg. But you know that the fact that it's almost forgotten, not that it's forgotten because it should be forgotten, but that it's forgotten because it's not important to how they see or define me.