‘We are a spectrum, not a series of boxes’

Pronouns: he / him

Content warning:  references to strong homophobic language, homophobia, homophobic attacks and the AIDS crisis

Names have been changed and redacted to protect anonymity

In terms of your own identity, be it gender identity, sexuality identity. How do you self-describe?    

Well until a couple of years ago, I would never have even thought about it. But yes, I'm cisgender. And I'd self-identify as bisexual. And in terms of ethnicity, I always do 'white other' or 'white European', because the whole 'white British', 'white Irish' doesn't mean anything to me. 

And what feels good about the term 'bisexual' for you?    

Good? I don't even know if it's loaded with value other than that's the term. And I'm older than I look. So we're going back. Shit, we're going back 25 years. That was what was out there. It was 'LGBT', in those days, and even getting the 'B' and the 'T' were relatively recent culture wars, or at least it felt like it. I think it's just in terms of the word itself, I mean, words have power, but the word itself doesn't sort of have big connotations for me, other than that was the single handle that felt like it made sense. The others, being straight didn't make sense, I knew I wasn't gay. So, it was what I landed on.

Are you aware of other terms that people use under that 'Bi Umbrella'?

Yeah, I suppose. I mean, 'pan' is probably the one that I've kind of encountered the most. I've heard some people describe themselves as polysexual. Obviously, there's asexual, etc. This may be a generational thing, but I never heard anyone refer to themselves as 'pan' or 'pansexual' until less than 10 years ago. 'Queer' was an interesting one, because it was still very much living folk memory of that being a pejorative term. But I went to a university where queer theory, 'Queory' was quite a big thing. So, it always felt quite academic and dry to me. And then actually about 10/15 years ago, some of my friends who previously probably would have identified as gay were saying: "Actually, no, we're reclaiming 'queer' because..." And actually, I had a lot of sympathy with that. That sort of sense that the gay scene, gay life, or LGBTQ+, as it’s evolved over the years. But the scene had become very heteronormative. Very corporate and commercial, the whole pride as a protest. So, I could see where they were coming from. It just never really felt like it fit me. I suppose if someone said, "Are you queer or not?" I'd probably say, “Yeah”. "Which team am I on?" I'd say, "No, I'll join the queer team, please." But it was never a label I've always put on myself, it was because I refuse to think that I'm in any way outside of the norm. I think it's completely normal. And I'm not saying people who self-describe as queer think that they're not normal. But I don't view myself as particularly inside or outside of a tent.

And are there any terms within the Bi+ Umbrella that you don't like? Are there any that you're not a fan of?   

Not really. The only one that, and this was a subject of lots of debate because I was very heavily involved in the anti-tuition fees campaigns. Spokesman of the non-payment campaign, in my university, we occupied buildings and shit. There was a very vocal, very effective, very lovely bunch of guys, who banded together as part of this campaign under the immortal pink fake fur triangles, FFF:  'Faggots Fighting Fees'. And I'm a firm believer in reclaiming words, but there is something about that word that just puts a knife through my heart. I think it's just purely personal. But you can reclaim pretty much anything. And I don't think they're wrong to reclaim it. And also, I think spending a lot of time in the States where especially... Less 'faggot', but 'fagg' is used so much in the States. And in a way that I think there's certain things we should always be sort of 'red buttons' for people and that's the one that I can't reclaim. But yeah, I'm not particularly worried about language. Ironic, given what I do. I kind of found the peg that my hat seemed to fit on and went: "That seems like the best description for me. And my version of this is going to be different to the man and the woman on either side of me."

When did you become aware of your sexuality?    

My sexuality? Or the fact that I wasn't heteronormative 2.4, Classic?

When did you become aware of that (realisation) "Oh, I'm not gay and I'm not straight"?

It'd be somewhere around the 13/14 year old mark. In the very first instance, very much tied to a single person. I was academically absurdly high achieving, I played football to quite a serious level. If it wasn't for the fact I'm big and fluffy. I was the kid who headbutted the kids two years older when they took our football, And I am blokey. Always perfectly interested in girls. They gave me a funny feeling in my tummy, as they say. [LAUGHTER] But then I think that there's that weird phase -and it's weird watching it with my little boys. They're still at an age where they have, albeit I think my eldest is atypical that two of his best friends, and I would argue the two he's closest to, are girls. Already, that's becoming not odd, but less common?- And then you hit 8 and 9 (years old), and then at some point, normal people start to shift back and have friends of the opposite gender. And yeah, I definitely had more female friends who I clearly had no interest in smooching- because at that age, you're not doing much else - much earlier than a lot of my male friends. I had more close female friends when I was 13, than a lot of my male friends have now and they're in their 40's. And I don't think that says much about your sexuality, other than the idea that if you're not viewing the opposite sex purely from the prism of everything that's happening hormonally, that possibly indicates that it's because you don't, of course I see gender, but you don't necessarily make it the be all and end all. And I've always had very passionate friendships, whether it's between myself and a man and myself and a woman. And I've always sort of almost fallen, in a kind of platonic sense. And as I've been older there were some friendships that were slightly fluid and when they moved into a sort of sexual thing as well. I met someone who's much older than me, who I'm pretty sure is straight. But he's an interesting fellow, doesn't do anything on any of my radars as to where he would sit. And I became acutely aware of the fact that whilst nothing would happen- I mean he was double my age- that the feelings I had were not the feelings you have about a mentor or someone you look up to, or a much-loved friend. And just a realisation that, I mean, don't get me wrong when I, several years later, broached the subject with a member of my family. The response was:  "It's just hero worship." And it absolutely wasn't that. And so I think that was when I kind of went: "Hmmm. This is a thing!" But it was kind of hypothetical, because I would have met [him] when I was... I would have been 13? And he would have been 27.     

So like, I'm not stupid, that was not going to be a thing. But there was definitely a realisation of "This is a different set of feelings to what I'm being told is the norm." It's also fair to say that Belgium is an incredibly Roman Catholic country. Imagine Ireland, but with as much rain and better beer. It's really, historically, probably less homophobic, perhaps, than Ireland. But in terms of social justice movements and stuff, that starts coming in the 90’s.  So, the messaging is very, very '2.4 kids.' There's no burgeoning 'Metrosexuality' in early 1990's Brussels. [LAUGHTER]

Has coming out been part of your experience? 

Yes, and no. 

Don't get me wrong. Armistead Maupin's 'Dear Mama' letter can reduce me to pieces. And I've read it a thousand times. It is and it isn't. I never felt the need to put a name on it. And actually say "This is who I am" with my parents. And I never will; my mom has Alzheimer's, my dad's dead. I think I started really kind of going: "Okay, this is really a thing." And it stopped being something 'I'm kind of quietly aware of this, and I'm just going on with my every day,' and became 'I'm really thinking deeply about this' when I was 16/17. I suspect that my father had his suspicions, and it never needed to be spoken about. I don't think that their reaction would have been particularly negative. And I have my suspicions as to why in the case of my dad, who was hard work but I don't think he would have been negative about that. And then the difficult thing was I kind of had the Belgian equivalent of an American 'High School movie' upbringing. I was president of the Student Council, I set up my own theatre company when I was 16. There was a generation of French girls in my school who were known as 'collective gorgeousness', and I went out with several of them. And I was very much in love with a couple of people. And they both happened to be girls. I never felt that I had to sort of make any sort of justification. I think I then sort of actually had the beginnings of a wee liaison, I think it was actually more when I left that world where people judged me as who I was. I came and did the NYT in London when I was 18. And one of the exercises, I did a piece, probably terrible, but about trying to say: "Well, this is who I am, I think I'm bi. And I'm not really fussed by that." And lots of people came out like: "Ooh, that was terribly brave!" And I was like: "I didn't feel particularly brave." It felt very nice. It felt very releasing. And then, I've never had a partner who's a man. I wouldn't say I've only had flings, and I haven't had many, I've had people who were friends who were in my life, some of whom are still in my life. Which must be slightly confusing for my beloved. But it's not that. "It's not part of my life. These people aren't part of my life." But I've never been in a relationship, in a traditional way, with a guy. And so I think I've adopted a kind of piecemeal approach. Which is when it seems relevant, when I think that someone will benefit from knowing that about me. So, in the case of people who I went to school with, the smart ones, will have worked it out. Just by what I say and who I am and how I am. People I don't know so well, who may be just trying to find who they are. Yeah, I probably found an opportunity to mention it. If I feel that there's an element of 'this is a safe place, we're amongst friends.’ In theatre, because sometimes we flatter ourselves that we're super tolerant, but we do all right. And I do think that, in theatre, I've never felt that it was much of an issue. And there's an element of 'camp' within a lot of straight actors, so it's always felt like I can 'queen' it up when I want to. And, if anything, I found more surprise when people are like: "But you're really bright and artistic. Why are you obsessed with football?" I think actually I’ve had as many bizarre reactions in that area. The closest thing to coming out was me saying to [my relative], who was my hero, etc. When I was 16 or 17, it was starting to really play on my mind. I was a very depressed kid, quite a depressed adult at various times. It was a multiplier on the bad feelings and it wasn't all plain sailing. And I think at that time, I said: "Look, I'm having these feelings about this guy. And I know that there is no way..." I mean, at this point, technically it would have been illegal in Belgium under the then rulings. I think they had a similar situation to us, age of consent wasn't equalised if you were over 18 or under 18. Although Belgium (ruling) is if you're over 18, and the person is under 18, straight and gay, it's technically classed as statutory rape. But also, I wasn't stupid. It wasn't something that was gonna happen. And that was an attempt (for me) to say: "Look, your opinion matters. You need to know who I am." And yeah, it was met, disappointingly, with the: "Oh, it's just hero worship, it's just a phase," sort of response. Not unkindly. I think it was probably more of: "Oh, well, there's always something. It'll be something else in due course." 

And on a couple of occasions where people have used epithets: "Ah, that's so gay," "Don't be such a 'poof'", etc. If someone really doesn't get it,  it's a cheap shot but it's an effective shot to say: "Do you have a problem with me? No? Then fucking stop saying that." So yeah, for instance, I lived with a relatively tight collection of guys for the first five years during drama school. And afterwards, I chose to live on the other side of London, in Bethnal Green, to be away from the world of theatre. With a bunch of mates, lots of Italians, and French and Spanish, weird internationals like me from France and Belgium. And some of them knew and some of them didn't. And it was based on whether I thought the conversation was worth having, not that I'd have ever lived with someone who I thought was bigoted. But there's a difference between bigotry and quite a lot of rust. And let's just say some people have more rust on their gears of tolerance than others. 

And when you have spoken to people about it, what kind of responses have you had from people? 

At the risk of turning this into some bizarre, autobiographical segway. I did shit tonnes of theatre, for the little bit of theatre you can do in Brussels if you speak English. And I did a production of 'Marvin's Room', which got turned into a terrible film with Leonardo DiCaprio. And there was a guy in that cast who subsequently became, very briefly, a lover, but he was very much sort of a mentor and I would have been 15 when I met [him]. And something happened between us when I was 17, and I think he would have been about 35/36-ish. And let's be very, very clear; that happened because I wanted it to happen. It was absolutely my choice. And he was and remains an incredibly kind and sensitive human and was paranoid. He's like: "Oh my god child!" He's very camp, my big uncle. He's like: "Oh my god, child, I've broken you, have I damaged you? I feel terrible." I was like: "No, I don't feel terrible at all." This is why I say my dad had an inkling, he came and picked me up after the last night of the play, and I said: "Look is it alright? Some of them going are on to a bar?" It's 16 to go to a bar in Belgium. But still, I was 15. And it was [my friend], an American playwright and an American actress. And I said, "Oh, can you take my stuff? And I'll have one drink and I'll go home." And came home at like 5am, having been to all sorts of lovely places. One of which was subsequently tear gassed when I was inside. That was a really good illustration of the level of hatred that exists. Having grown up in a, for the time, reasonably tolerant bubble, there wasn't much overt bigotry amongst my parents or friends, for the time, it was pretty good. And so, when I would go to a gay bar or something, lots of comments about being 'chicken' and people clucking as you walk into the bar, and 'fresh meat'. And then of course, if anyone ever got into that conversation, it becomes the whole: "But you have or have had girlfriends? Oh, you're just... yeah, you're greedy. You're trying to have it both ways." And, on some level, I can understand that because, to this day, I can choose to pass without tamping down. Of course, I code switch. But without tamping down very much, I can pass [CLICKS FINGERS] like that. Because part of my personality is... I do love beer. And I do love football. And I do love the female form. And if I want to, I can absolutely play that game. And it's completely instinctive. So, I can understand the whole: "Look, this is not as integral to you as it is to me." Whether I agree with that or not, I respect why people would come at it from that. And certainly, in the 90's, and I'm sure to this day, there was a huge number of people who said, "No, you're not. It's just not a thing." To which my response was, "Well, I'm the thing. And this is who I feel I am. And I'm very sorry if that doesn't fit within and understandably defensive binary."

How did that make you feel?

How has it made me feel when people say that? At the time, it's not great, because you're trying to find out who you are, and you're being told that the tribe that should be the safe place doesn't really, fully want you. But then, I was never particularly 'sceney'. I love the scene. You know, I am someone who I will literally go to a non 'G.A.Y' [bar] [MIMICS DANCE MUSIC] but I will go and sit in somewhere, which has self-identified as a gay bar with a book and have a pint. And I'm not cruising, I'm not harking for anything. It's just a different vibe. I think long before the term was sort of used to death, if you're travelling into cities and countries that maybe aren't always particularly tolerant, if I see a rainbow flag, I know it's a safe space. And I know it just comes with a lot of positive baggage. So yes, when people are like: "Well, you're not really this." That's never particularly nice. But I'm sympathetic to it to quite a long point, because I'm not the kid who didn't have a choice as to how much I express this. I have huge levels of privilege on that point. You talk to friends who have suffered the most atrocious things because of being unable, before you're even at a point where it's a question of "Am I willing or not to code switch?" Where even before you're old enough to really know how to code switch, to just suffer terrible things, because they didn't fit the stereotypes. So, I can understand why people slightly go, "Oh, well, you swan in. And have it all." A lot of it is humour with a little bit of something behind it. I mean, my missus always just says: "Oh, god, I'm just worried that it just doubles the number of people you can run off with." [LAUGHTER] It is what it is. 

But then, when I'm not acting, the way I feed our kids is I'm a tourist guide. Because I was a historian at uni, and I speak fluent French, so, it's quite useful. And I've got the equivalent of the 'knowledge' for that. And that's a community that is a very safe space. Straight men under 50 are non-existent, practically, there's very few. So less of my female colleagues are out, but a lot of my male colleagues are out. So, I'm increasingly rarely in contexts where I have to justify my existence. Yeah, increasingly, it's something that I normally try and work in, when it isn't crowbarred (in). But when it actually is salient and relevant in a conversation. Increasingly, when I make new friends. It's bizarre because, actually, I think this is one of the highest compliments I can pay her. Actually meeting my wife made it incredibly easy and not in terms of " Oh well, I have a beard." [LAUGHTER] Because I'd say she's not a beard, and I'm not in need of one, because I'm not in the closet. But on lots and lots of levels, one of the great gifts of her being in my life is me being better at just being: "This who I am, this is what I want. I don't actually want to do that." And so, if I'm out to her, the fuck does anyone else's opinion matter? 

And it's a weird thing, because when it comes to gender politics and sexual politics, I'm kind of a moral relativist. I'm like; "If two people are consenting, and everyone's happy and safe, go nuts!" And I've approached my relationships that way, and in a 'horses for courses' way. It so happens that what works for her and works for me is an incredibly [LAUGHTER] heteronormative life. And it's not an open relationship or anything like that. We're married, and she'd either get rid of me or probably stab me between the eyes first. So, it's very bizarre, because I'm very comfortable and openly bi, but if I pre decease her, there's every chance I'll never kiss a man off stage again. Which is a slightly weird thing to say. I think there is an element of being of an age where I just don't actually care. I live very close to my in-laws. They're incredibly supportive of childcare. And, of course, we don't agree on everything. But they are wonderful people. But their newspapers are The Times and the 'Torygraph,' and the Mail for the sport on the weekend. Doesn't mean they're crazy right wing, but it doesn't mean they're going to be joining a Pride march anytime soon. Although I'm sure if they found out that I was bi, they wouldn't A, wouldn't give a fuck and B, I wouldn't worry about their reaction. And also, for what it's worth, their reaction would probably be like: "Cool." [LAUGHTER] But I think you do get to an age where some things you don't worry about as much. But again, I'm acutely aware of the fact that I speak from a place of safety and, within the context of the current time, relative comfort. You know, and with the support of a much-loved life partner. So I mean, I think she, I think she finds it quite weird. Because she's straight as a die. Not that she has any beef. But it's just like, just "Nothing... doesn't do anything for me, I'm afraid, the ladies." She has actually met [my friend] which was quite entertaining. There's one dear friend who remains a dear friend, but I wouldn't even say we were 'friends with benefits', that implies it was a continuous arrangement. But yes, there's been multiple times where he and I have been lovers as well, and he remains a close friend. And she knows that. And he comes to our house sometimes and hangs out with the boys. He's been known to come and hang out with her and the boys. And I think if he wasn't literally the kindest human alive- it's impossible to dislike him - I think if he had more sharp edges, I think that my other half would have found that more difficult. But it's impossible. It's clearly not a threatening thing to my marriage or anything like that. Yeah, completely out of her experience. And also, the other thing in terms of the context of that conversation that's worth mentioning, I mean, there is a gradient, I'm not 50/50 (percent). I don't find as many men attractive as I find women. And if you'd asked me when I was 15 or 16, I'd have said it's like 10/90 (percent). And I think now I'm probably more in a sort of 35/65 (percent). Somewhere around about that.

And do you think fractions are important? Do you think it's important to quantify?   

No, I think it was important when I was working out who I was. And I think maybe it was difficult because it did feel like, ‘why am I running through this? Why am I twisting myself around going "Oh, ahhh, eee. What is this? When this is such a small percentage?’ Now not so much, except just maybe by way of illustration of (how) my palate may have changed. [LAUGHTER] 'Cos it happens with cheese and booze, I suppose, maybe with lovers. Who knew! I'd like some Brie! Yes. Urgh, no Epoisse! But also, that possibly is the consequence of a longer period of time of existing in rooms where I feel welcome to be myself and being more 'Bien dans ma peau'. It translates as 'comfortable in your own skin'. But I don't know, it means it's slightly more deep. 'Bien dans ma peau' in French. I think the percentage is interesting, now. I don't actually think it's in any way important. But absolutely. When I was trying to work out who I was, rightly or wrongly, it felt important. 

Have you had any that you would call definitely negative or definitely positive responses? Or any that were completely neutral? 

I always had a lot of time for people who were just like: "Ooh!" And then asked me questions. I wouldn't say massively often, but it's happened. As an actor, you go from always being the youngest person in the room to being the oldest person in the room. And especially now, because I live at the pond scum level of the food chain with occasional moments of something a bit fancier. If you're working on the fringe, you may not be the oldest person in the room, but I'm 16 and a bit years deep. I'm very often the most experienced person in the room. And it's often with younger actors, I like to think I'm not that boring bastard who goes: "My kids are amazing!" But, you know, like all parents, my kids are a ridiculous proportion of who I am. And an even more ridiculous proportion of just the logistical function of getting through the day. Because apparently, they can't feed themselves. I mean, (JOKES) they should be working by now if you ask me. But I think people know I am boringly and unfashionably head over heels in love with my wife. I live by her looks at a level that is really a bit saccharin. After 13 and a half years, she's just brilliant. So if you spent a week or two in a rehearsal room with me, you kind of know that I've got kids and they're mental and they drive me nuts. But I'd literally lie down in traffic for them. And that I have this amazing wife, who is so much more talented than me. And then you go, "Ah! Oh!” If it (me being bi) comes up. So that response of "Oh! Ah! Okay!" And then having the curiosity to ask questions. Maybe that's just because all actors kind of like talking about themselves within a safe place. Not in interviews. I don't know. The reactions that involve laughter and good jokes are always a good one. Like I said, I've never really done a sort of formal 'coming out' process. So, some people obviously go: "Oh, ok." And then squirrel away, and then maybe a question will come up six months, 12 months down the line. But I've had a lot of "Oh, makes sense." Which is kind of an interesting, but far from unwelcome reaction. 

The "But you're married!" (response) is one that comes up, but that's less and less. It's just slightly tiresome. I'm fortunate enough to live in a context where the number of people in the rooms I'm in here who are gonna outright be obnoxious and or offensive is relatively small. And in terms of within the LGBTQ community, I don't make big and grandiose claims about what my part should or shouldn't be. It's just I'm always like: "This is who I am." And I don't think many people within the community find that threatening in the way that people maybe did 20 years ago. I think whether or not that's because of a greater understanding that we are a spectrum, not a series of boxes. And even amongst those who don't, unfortunately, have that perspective, a lot of them are cynically smart enough to know that, at the very least, you're looking at a massive source of allies. In terms of liberation campaigns and ongoing battles that we all have to fight. 

I've been on tour in southern Italy. I was the only person in that cast who made the effort to speak a bit of Italian. And I had to explain to one of my fellow actors that in rural Italy if you walk into a tiny dive bar up a mountain in Sicily, and order, in non-existent Italian, 'Do you have Malibu and coke?' three times in English. And you are gloriously, fabulously mincing, that you are going to get a certain amount of attention. And his response was: "Well, I am who I am." And I was like: "Absolutely. But be aware that I am the person who's going to have to get into the fight to get you out of it." And just as if I was invited to someone's house, who I know is deeply Roman Catholic, I wouldn't throw in their face my views on the Roman Catholic Church's most recent chequered history. Be aware of where you are. And that was a really difficult conversation, because although I was very young, he was much younger, and I think, possibly, slightly looked up to me, I don't know. And I felt awful because I felt like I was doing something I always said I never would, which was nudging someone in the direction of taking the edge off. But, also being aware of just certain realities in life. I don't think you have an obligation to follow the morality of where you are. Far from it. But just knowing that there are times when it is probably strategically worth accepting that you are not going to change anyone's mind by being who you are. And you are going to put yourself in situations you don't want to. Yeah, it was a difficult conversation, one made easier when I explained what my perspective on it was, but still difficult even then. And I understand why he found it difficult and frustrating. And I felt like I was pissing on the barbecue, but I was also like: "Okay, well, we have to find a way, because also I know enough Italian to know when half the bar are muttering homophobic insults." So we left a lot of bars, put it that way.     

But then you know what? The way I try to put it to him and the way I tried to justify it to myself is it's a really healthy gut check to remember that we ain't where we need to be. But I appreciate where we've come to, where we live right now. And the privilege of living in a place like that. And therefore making sure that you do everything you can to reach out and support those who live in places, at the moment, for instance Poland or whatever. And advocacy and stuff to go: "Actually, this is really hard won." And it is astonishing, the UK, the way it's changed. Because, not being funny, and I'm not trying to pull the age rank. I'm 41 but even talking to people your age, who are like a half a generation down, not a full generation down. It's really hard to explain. Which means you were 10 when New Labour were brought in. And I spent most of my student days protesting New Labour because I'm to the left of them, but that was a massive change, just in terms of having out cabinet ministers and things. You know, Chris Smith: best Culture Secretary we've had in my lifetime. A Culture Secretary who actually goes to the fucking theatre! It's radical! [LAUGHTER] 

It's interesting, I talked to my missus and (she) went to a school that was a girls’ school but incredibly, ethnically diverse, incredibly open minded: 'Girls can do anything'. She would be like (to prejudiced people): "Why, why, why? Why are you like that?" She sees bigotry and she's like: "I don't get it!" But my roots are in the mining and tinplate valleys of South Wales. And I had hair to my waist and just: [In Welsh accent] "Ooh, that's very fucking dubious. Oh, it's alright, he plays football he gets kicked in the-" I was a keeper, "-gets kicked in the face, that's all right." But lots of jokes about "Backs to the walls, boys!" And all of those traits and the speed with which they've ceased being tolerated in the public sphere is astonishing.

Do you feel your gender comes into it, when people do respond to learning you're bi?

Yes, I think they're more surprised than they would be if I was an equivalent version of me who was a woman. I think, personally, this is not in any way analytical or statistical, just purely as in my lived experience, what I see around me and what I see with me. I feel that women I’ve known or know who identify as bi... there are people who would find it harder to take with a guy who will find it easier as a concept for a woman. But then the flip side of that coin is, there are so few tawdry and titillating tropes about a man being bi whereas it's the whole like [MIMICS A BLOKEY, LEERY VOICE] "Waheey!" I think it's very much a double-edged sword. I'm not going to claim "Oh, I have it harder, I have an easier." But I do think there is a gendering. It seems less strange to people, a woman being bi, but it also has a lot more weird and very often, I find, unkind... something slightly lascivious in the way people perceive a woman who is bi. 

Why do you think that is? What do you think it is about people that look at gender in that way and bisexuality? 

First of all, I think that there is an element where people are terrified. A lot of men are terrified about the idea that someone might want to fuck them up the arse, to be blunt. I think there's a lot of men who are pretty terrified by the fear that they might, deep down, want to be. I mean, if you look at what homophobes say, the prevalence with which anal sex comes up. It's like a sickness in homophobes, they're fucking obsessed with it! 

My neighbours in Brussels. People don't realise the three biggest immigrant groups in Belgium, historically, post-war, are Italian. The labour force to rebuild the country. Former Belgian colonies, so what was the Congo. The Congo, Rwanda, Burundi and North Africa, though Morocco especially, again, cheap labour force. In the Second World War, because of French occupation they spoke French. So quite a lot of the guys I played football with, growing up around, were Moroccan-Belgian. And I think it's fair to say I'm not going to impart any value judgments on 15/16 year old boys' views of the feminine form. But especially reasonably devout Muslim households amongst these guys. The bed sheet on the morning after the wedding is quite a big deal. So, technical virginity is quite a big deal. And I always make the point of going, actually, the vast majority of anal sex being practised in the world is between straight couples. But people are absolutely obsessed. There's loads of gay men who have never had penetrative intercourse. And I think that there is a real sort of fear of [MOCK DEEP MASCULINE VOICE] "But you're supposed to be a man, and you're supposed to dominate... and all the language: I conquer!" And all that crap.. But I think, a woman being bi, and again it's just sort of my two bit 'bar room' analysis, but I think there is that thing of that means you're 'open', which means you're 'passive', which means you are: "Oh, she's up for anything". And there is a huge interest in male culture, and the idea of "Ohhh! Two women!" And I always like to just wind people up and just be like: "What if she wants another bloke and he's bigger than you? Ahhh!" Because it's all a little bit silly. And I can't take such stuff too seriously. But I think it feeds into that. And also I think, in general popular imagination, more lesbians can pass, whereas "those 'wooftahs,' we'll know them." [LAUGHTER] It's that 70s thing of "Oooh, you'd know a gay man!" Or whatever. I'm using offensive terminology deliberately, obviously, but like, "You know him!"

 It goes back to things like the fact that female lesbianism wasn't illegal. It wasn't because of Queen Victoria. That's an apocryphal tale, but still it was never very included in the Sexual Offences Act in 1860 something. So it's that thing of ‘you wouldn't know if that woman was a lesbian’. Whereas someone who you think is a straight man, switching into "They're gay, but that's not what we are." But shifting the vision to: "Ooh, well that is part of his identity" may be more of a leap for people. 

When people learn that you’re bisexual, do you find the fact that you're in a heteronormative relationship impacts that reaction?

I think it probably makes me quite a healthy and effective gateway drug to the concept. Because there's absolutely nothing threatening about it. I'm not trying to get in anyone's pants. Because no one's having to recalibrate where they put me on that scale. We talk about gaydar, but everybody has got radar and one of the main radars people have is about sexual attraction. Because it's a really important part of life. But I'm already in the kind of 'non-threatening boys' box. Lisa Simpson has a comic: [IN A HIGH VOICE] 'Non-threatening Boys.' Yeah, I think it doesn't have that much impact. Because it doesn't change how people would view me. But it means that there's not that: "Okay, so is the guy you're- Is it a guy you're with right now? Or is a girl... and the last person.. Was that a boy or a girl?" Because well, now, I've been with my missus for 13 and a half years, so those sorts of conversations, which are a healthy gateway into someone trying to suss out where one sits. Those avenues that open up conversations are kind of moribund. Again, on a lot of levels, that is a privilege. There is an element of "This is who I am, and it doesn't change anything, and then we move" in a way that, in lots of other contexts, for lots of other people, something as simple as saying: "This is who I love. This is the type of people I love" can have a much bigger impact. 

Are you aware of any words or monikers or phrases or stereotypes that people associate with the bisexual community?    

'Greedy' in a semi playful way, but which normally has something behind it. 'Greedy.' 'Unable to make your mind up,' which I particularly dislike. 

Why?    

A choice is a choice, because a choice is a choice. It's telling me I haven't made an active choice, and I'm many things but I'm not stupid. And also I don't like the idea of 'making your mind up'. It's not a definitive choice. I think there are people who identify as bi who will not, as I have done, settle into a long-term relationship. But will have a series of relationships and they will be from now until the moment they die in 50 years, always with the same gender. Doesn't change the fact they're bi, just the right guy or girl, depending on whichever way we're talking, hasn't turned up. So, they're on one side of their area of interest because that's who comes in and makes them flutter in all the right places. I really don't like "Oh, yeah, you haven't made your mind up." What else? It never bothered me 20 years ago, but now the sort of tropes around, "Oooh, so open minded!!" It's like guys, come on, the last 20 years happened! Some of the most unbelievably '2.4 heteronormative' people I know are members of the LGBTQ community. The Conservatives have occasional gay cabinet ministers. I mean, you can't get more heteronormative than that! Give them a Ford Sierra and a fucking twinset.  

Are you aware of any stereotypes or words are associated just with bisexual men? Have you come across any? 

No, that I can think of, no.

Are you aware of the term 'bi erasure'? Have you heard that term before? 

No, I'd probably hazard a guess as to what is. But no, it's not one I've heard before. I would assume it's about the fact that as not being an 'easy box'. That visibility is massively reduced because people see a bisexual man with another man, they assume he's gay. See a bisexual woman with, say, a man, assume she's straight? I would assume it's that.

Yeah, you're pretty much right! "Well, you can't be this box because this box isn't real. So, you must be in that box and pretending." "Oh, it's just a phase, you're just experimenting, you’re just halfway," that undermining of bisexuality. 

The one that is really common. Although I can understand why the term grew up because there are some people who probably do slightly fall into that box. But it was massively overused, and it was used to stick to people, it was about bi women, which was 'lipstick lesbians.' And actually, I think that's a generational shift. I went to Uni in Sussex, gay capital of southern England - Brighton. And I spent my life doing plays. I think that a very large number of younger women I knew would be doing the whole: "I'm so drunk, I'm going to snuggle my friend, “ and other than that had absolutely straight lives. I think that (to) a lot of my lesbian friends, [UNDER THEIR BREATH] 'fucking lipstick lesbian' is common. I think nowadays, both my generation and the 20-year-olds of today would probably look at those people and say: "Okay, some of those are being performative. Some of them." But also, "Well, it's your right to explore." But also going: "Well, there's a possibility that actually this person is bi or pan, but with a heavy weighting and is starting to dip a toe?" I think that society would probably be more forgiving and maybe understanding now, even in the last five to 10 years, I think there's been a lot of change. But then again, I think contextually it's very hard for people to understand why people can be so brutal in the LGBTQ community. You know, there's a very lovely line, I love Armistead Maupin, I adore him. He's about the only happy writer I know who I love. And they did the Netflix adaptation. 'The third One', which is terribly glossy... and they finally cast Mouse, right, which made me so happy.  I struggle with it on some levels, the adaptation, as much as I liked the book and stuff. But there was a really effective line where Michael's new, very gorgeous boyfriend, he's very young, is at a dinner with Michael and a lot of his old friends. And he calls them out on being transphobic. And one of them turns around and says, "When I was your age, I wasn't going to dinner parties. I was going to fucking funerals." And I think a lot of the language was so harsh, because I think people went through an awful lot. And I'm ...sorry. [TRIES NOT TO CRY]

I'm just old enough that I knew people for whom it (AIDS) was a death sentence. And I'm just young enough to have people who literally, their diagnosis was just late enough for the retrovirals to have kept them alive. And I remember having a drink and being tear gassed. I mean, not me personally, someone threw a CS canister into the bar. And it's funny, 'The Inheritance' was incredibly effective, because there is a generation who don't know the history. And I remember doing a play a couple years before that. There was something about the insouciance, I was in the company of actors and it was so abundantly clear that there was, I'm talking about an individual not a generation, I'm not interested in beating up on the young, I think young people today are vastly more impressive than people 20 years older than me were when they were young. But there was something about this individual, who's very nice, his insouciance about the freedom and the tolerance and the liberties, albeit still curtailed, but that had (been) won so far. And this is pre-Brexit so it's the context of "Ah, but the Tories are bringing in gay marriage. And they're not so bad. And they got a gay cabinet minister." And I got really angry, and I thought "You know what, you have no fucking idea what people went through." And then I checked myself: "Well, actually, that's the point, people went through it so that he could be as insouciant as he is." And I'm delighted that he has never asked himself the question. And doesn't know about section 28 and the Bermondsey campaign against Tatchell. Now, I don't agree with everything that Tatchell's done. The campaign against Tatchell in Bermondsey in 83 is like Goldsmith in the mayoral election in 2016. It's a stain on British political history. But being that little bit closer connected with the overlap. I think the language has softened, in part because our community. And that is one thing that's interesting about bi because you sit in and out, are you allowed to be part of this community? But I think the folk memory of being permanently embattled and permanently under attack. And I hope it doesn't come again. I think just (having) getting through the day, ‘survival mode’, be the default setting a lot of the time means that people can be more open to different shades. And the idea that it's a spectrum, it's not 'with us or against us'. That we can agree on this, but maybe disagree on this. Yeah, I think progress is being made. But then, I don't spend very much time on the scene these days. [LAUGHTER] You know, I'm sometimes in bars depending on who I'm drinking with really. I think the edges feel like they've smoothed off it. But it's interesting, the term bi erasure, because visibility, for instance, is something where, that's not outright hostility. That's just the disappearance of, of a group of people sort of- blending them into everyone else.

And if you're going to the theatre and you knew you were going to see a bisexual character on stage. Or you're watching a Netflix show when you knew someone was bisexual. What would you want to see in that representation? Or would you not want to see?

I think it depends on the play, what sort of play it is.

Many gay men have said, "Could I not be tragic and kill myself at the end of this movie?" I want to see someone who is bi and happily in a relationship with another man or another woman and is not trying to sleep with the other gender by way of plot point. I want it to look like the bi people I know. Which is like the people I know. That's all I want. And hey, listen, if you want to use it as a tilt of a possible angle, if it's not exploitive and crap. And also, again, I think this is more in the rejection of bi women, but that somehow 'a young toothsome woman, under the age of 25, who goes out with, or sleeps with men and women is somehow in a slightly self-destructive drug fuelled spiral.' I mean, please, like that experimentation is somehow like; "Hey, she lost herself." I mean, you get it with guys as well, but especially about women. That "Yeah, they've lost themselves in some sort of slightly Seraglio vibe." It's all shot through a fucking gauze with some drugs involved and [LAUGHTER] If you’re gonna show that, show someone having a fucking great time. Also, the conflation in popular culture of bisexuality with threesomes and orgies. And there's plenty of people I know who 'swing both ways', which is a term I don't particularly mind as some people do. It has a certain lightness that I quite enjoy. But that there is sometimes a conflation of, well, "That must mean you want to screw everyone at the same time." It's like: "No, some people want to do that. That's cool. But some people just want the one person." And it's the simplistic stuff I find really dumb. I think that's everything.

But then I come at it going, "I don't need to know a character's sexuality unless it's relevant." But then I suppose the majority of the population probably go "Oh, I assume he's straight" about any character they see. And if you don't, if it's not specified in the casting, they'll be white! And the doctor will be a man unless it's specified, and fighter pilots.