“I think in any space where an identity is not often represented, it creates a vacuum.”

Pronouns: She/Her

Names have been redacted to protect anonymity

In terms of your sexuality, are there any terms that you strongly feel aligned to, or do you feel you strongly disagree with?

So I would identify as bisexual. I would also call myself queer. And possibly hetero romantic, but I'm not 100% sure, I'm still exploring that. 

And do you mind my asking, in terms of your gender identity, how you identify yourself? 

Yep. Cisgendered female. 

Thank you so much. 

Boring, I'm afraid! [LAUGHTER] 

No, not boring at all! It's just that some people prefer different terms when they refer to their gender identity. So we just want to make sure that we're using the right ones for the person.

Yeah, ok that's fine. I briefly considered whether I was a demi girl or not. And then I decided no, I think I'm just a tomboy. I think that that's the word I would use for myself. 

'Demi girl', I've never heard of 'Demi girl.' 

So 'Demi Girl', apparently, it's someone who predominantly identifies as female, but, sort of, occasionally will have more masculine elements to that. I don't know, I got a bit confused by it. I read something about it and found it interesting. But I think for me, it's just about gender expression rather than identity. I don't know, I found it confusing and went, 'Oh, maybe I get that' and then I was like 'No, I don't think I do'. 

I think it's good to hear new terms, I enjoy hearing loads of new terms. And I'm so sorry, did you say there are any terms underneath the 'Bi Umbrella,' as it were, that you don't feel comfortable using, or don't particularly like for any reason? 

I don't particularly like being referred to, or calling myself, gay.  No, I don't particularly like calling myself gay. I don't massively object if someone else called me that, it wouldn't be an issue for me. Just, it doesn't feel like me. And I feel like it erases part of my identity. And yeah, it makes me feel like I fall very much into that binary of either you like one gender or another gender. So I'm not keen on... well, I can't police other people's language, but I am not keen on the way that there tends to be this tendency to say: "Everything's very gay!" I'm like: "Uhmmm.. Is it?" 

Have people called you gay before, do mind my asking? 

No. I'm not sure, but definitely there have been instances of people saying, "Oh, we're so gay," in terms of doing this activity. Or referring to themselves collectively as a group of dykes, and things like that. I hope I'm allowed to use language like that. 

Oh, yeah. If you're comfortable using it, then that's absolutely fine by me. 

Fantastic. Yeah, so terms which are meant to feel inclusive as a group, but, actually, I tend to find make me feel a bit more alienated.  I did used to identify as gay or lesbian until I was about 20. So I suppose I would have been called it then, but that's a slightly different thing. 

Okay! No, I'd love to hear about that a little bit later on, if that's okay? You mentioned that you like to identify yourself as bi or queer, what feels good for those terms for you? 

So queer I like because it's a 'catch all' umbrella. And I feel like anything that doesn't fall into a very... I've got to be careful how I put this, because I don't want to say 'binary' category, but a very sort of distinct, 'this is the definition!' And that is what it is. I feel like queer is a term that is much more inclusive, and it includes a much broader range of people and a broader set of approaches to sexuality. It's not just a case of whose genitals going where, there's more of a sense of it being actually it's about how you approach relationships. For me, I identify as bisexual more than pansexual because I find that my sexuality manifests differently for different genders, I find that the way in which I flirt with, or am attracted to, or fall in love with different genders or expressions of gender does tend to be different. And so I don't call myself pansexual. Because to me that term means attraction irrespective of gender. And for me, it's definitely not something that's entirely separate. I could fall for any gender, but how I would fall for them and how I would interact with them, how toppy I am, for example, is probably going to vary depending on their gender. [LAUGHTER]

Thank you very much. And you mentioned that before you hit the age 20, you identified as gay? 

Yeah. 

Do you mind my asking, at what point did you realise that actually, maybe you were bi instead of gay? 

So, it's complex! So I thought I was exclusively lesbian, until I was nearly 19. Moved to University, had never even kissed someone at this point, but had been pretty dead set for about six years that I was definitely gay, and then ended up fooling around with a guy. And I hadn't really explored sexuality for me in any sense yet, so I didn't really know what was just me experiencing something new and going, "Oh, this is a new thing," And what was me actually going, "I actively want to do this." So, I sort of put a pin in that, and ignored it for a couple of years. And then ended up flirting with/chasing after a professor of my university, if I'm honest. It's gonna be very obvious whose interview this is, if anybody knows me reads it [LAUGHTER] Chasing after a professor, and, yeah, then I realised, "Ah, maybe I'm not just gay. Maybe I like other genders, too!" And, accidentally, ever since, all of my long term relationships have been with men. So yeah, I've done a bit of a 180! [LAUGHTER]

And how does that feel? Do you find that people treat you differently? Or do you feel people had a moment to adjust, how did you find that?

So it was weird at the time, because I spent most of the time when I identified as gay hiding it. Because I was at school. And apart from a poem I accidentally won a competition with, that was very sapphic in hindsight, accidentally. I wasn't really out apart from to my family and to a couple of close friends, it wasn't common knowledge. So it's ironic that when I moved away, and could finally feel comfortable being out, I then realised that actually the identity I have come out as wasn't my identity before. So in that sense, it was weird. It was quite an adjustment. Because when you've spent several years, kind of hiding a big aspect of your identity to then realise that actually maybe that's not your identity at all, it's quite disconcerting! I'll be honest, it was useful, because at the time I was chasing after a professor, and nobody would have suspected because they thought I was gay. So I was accidentally Machiavellian, which was handy, but in hindsight not healthy. And my mom's reaction was interesting. She found it harder to accept that I was bi then that I was gay.

Oh, really! 

It was interesting. She didn't have a massively hard time with either, she was quite accepting. But her response to me being gay was mostly positive. The only thing she said is "Oh, I'd quite like grandkids." Which at the time, I was obsessed with the idea of anyway, so it wasn't an issue. But the standard 'you can't have children' assumption. When I told her I was bi, to be fair, I also told her I was dating a professor at the same time, so probably a lot to swallow in one go! But she didn't seem to understand it. She made a joke about me being greedy and not making my mind up. And even though it was definitely said with love, and it was in a light hearted way, I could tell that she didn't understand. Whereas when I came out as lesbian, I felt better understood, even if there wasn't any particular... I can't pinpoint an exact reason for how I felt that way and why it gave me that vibe. But she just felt less comfortable in knowing how to navigate it, in understanding the language, in understanding where I was coming from. 

Okay, thank you. And so, obviously, coming out is part of your experience. The term 'coming out', what does that mean to you, in particular?

For me, I feel like I do it all the time anyway. I feel like as a bi woman, for me anyway, there is always this assumption that the gender of the partner you are with is your sexuality. So, to a lesser degree, I don't feel like there's this heart wrenching 'Oh, God! Are they going to reject me?' feeling when I come out. It's mostly just me being ridiculously overt, and probably too graphic for my own good, just to make a point sometimes. But there is always this sense of 'I need to be as loud as I possibly can in being queer,' because otherwise people might not realise I am. So I'm aware that's part of why I am very much a flag waving 'This is my identity!' all the time. Which I wish I didn't necessarily have to do. Although I probably would still do, because that's the kind of person I am. I'm not very good at being quiet about anything, really. But I would say, in that sense, it's something that I feel like I'm never going to have to stop doing. It's just that now I don't really care what people's reaction is to it. Coming out when I was a teenager, the first time was terrifying. Mainly because, I didn't feel like I was going to be rejected or anything, I knew my parents were quite open minded and that they would love me no matter what. But, as weird as it sounds, having a conversation about sexuality means that you have to implicitly admit that you're thinking sexually about people. And so even though my mom is very open book, will happily discuss blowjobs and does not care with me, it's a very different thing as a 14 year old to sit down and go, "Hey, I like people enough to want to kiss or more than." So I would say that was really awkward for me in that sense. And then yeah, coming out again... Luckily, my second coming out was kind of overshadowed so I didn't really have to worry too much about that. [LAUGHTER]

Fair enough! And you mentioned your mom's response already, in terms of you coming out as bi. Have you had any other responses from individuals when you've come out as bi? 

So ironically, I had the opposite. I had someone when I came out as gay who asked me am I sure I'm not bi? And in hindsight they were right. [LAUGHTER] And, ironically, they were also my first crush, and they are also bi, but that's a whole other... Yeah. So I'm trying to think. I mean, there's always this awkwardness, particularly when you admit in a queer, actually I'm not going to call it a queer space, in a LGBTQ+ space, because I do think there's a distinction. And I think, particularly when you tell people who identify as gay or lesbian that you're bi, there is more likelihood of people questioning whether you mean what you say. Particularly because I'm non-monogamous as well. I've never been in a monogamous relationship. I am unfortunately feeding into a horrendous stereotype, which makes me feel awfully guilty, but it is who I am so I can't help it! So there is very much this difficulty, in that when I'm in those spaces, because for the last decade of my life my primary partner has been a man. Not the same man, but just by sheer coincidence, I have never had a primary partner who's been female. Actually, I don't know if it's coincidence, or if it's to do with romantic attraction. That's why I question that sometimes, I don't really know. And I don't know if I'll have the chance to find out. But it means that there's always this perception of me as a 'fag hag,' or someone who's 'bi curious,' who wants to kiss a girl to try it. Or someone who can't really make their mind up, or is just a unicorn because that pleases my male partners, rather than the fact that I am just naturally a slutty bi woman. Not that all bi women are slutty, But I am! [LAUGHTER] So I've definitely had instances where... so on dating platforms, for example, because I still actively date so it's something I do come across. I've had lesbian women tell me that they won't play 'second fiddle' to a man. I've had people question what my motives are in gay clubs. I've had people, essentially, take the piss out of my sexuality. I can remember once on a drunken night out having quite an in depth discussion with someone about how my sexuality tends to manifest because of who I tend to fancy on first sight, versus who I tend to enjoy sleeping with more, versus how I interact with people. It's quite complex for me. And I had one of those drunken heart to hearts that you have with people where, invariably, all the nuance was lost, but it was a nice moment. And then they introduced me to another person, and just went, "Oh, this is [REDACTED] she marries men and fucks women." "(Sighs) Oh, okay. Right, that wasn't as much of a heart to heart as I thought it was!" [LAUGHTER] "You've just, essentially, condensed a lot of what I was saying in quite a like, I'm not saying I was necessarily massively emotional over it, but it's quite personal stuff." And the way in which it was flippantly presented. It just kind of hit home. I forget sometimes in those spaces that there is an element of not being welcome. It's not hostile. But it is definitely made to feel like it's not your space sometimes. 

Do you think there is a ‘bi space’? 

I think there's a fledgling bi space. I don't think I knew I was missing it until I started associating more with bi people. In my head, my culture... I mean, because I grew up lesbian, I grew up watching 'The L Word,' I grew up trying shit lesbian dating sites, and not quite fitting in and playing basketball. All of the stereotypical things, where you try and shoehorn your personality. Although I also enjoyed it. And then, when I was at uni, I had a lot of friends who were gay men. And so my introduction to queer clubbing was going to the RVT, it was going out and getting smashed in a gay club, and then invariably, your friends get felt up on the dance floor. And that was great, that kind of music, I love that kind of environment, I was exploring where I was at myself. I'm quite sex positive, so I'm really not fussed by that and it feels quite homely to me. And it wasn't until I started to chat more to bi people that I realised, actually, there's a whole element to this that's been missing. There's that sense of shared understanding that I thought was there, but then when you experience it with people who really do get it, you suddenly go, "Oh, okay." So I think there seems to be more of a rise in queer spaces generally. And I think as well, partly because of the internet, there's now much more of a visibility for bi and pan and queer people and people that don't just identify as gay or straight. 

Thank you, amazing. I think you have touched on this, but I just want to go in depth more, do you think being a bisexual person of your gender affects the responses you get?

Oh, absolutely! I mean, dating sites, the number of couples that just assume, off the bat... And the ironic thing is, because I am non monogamous, and I am part of the kink scene theoretically, I have no objection. I mean, I probably wouldn't do it nowadays, just because of the construct my partner and I have. But I have been a unicorn for people in the past, of my own volition and enjoyed it. I have no problem with it inherently as a thing, it's something I've quite liked for various reasons. But I don't want to be turned into this 'human strap on', frankly. I just don't want people to see my profile and instantly assume: 'Oh, yeah, of course! Well, she's bi, she must be up for it!" Or the number of couples that say, "Oh, we're just looking to experiment." And there's a part of me that, on the one hand, wants to say 'good for you if that's something you want to do, that's fine. But also, with the greatest of respect, I've done my time." I've had my share of pillow princesses. I don't really need to be in an environment where I am training people through how to have non-straight sex, it's just not my jam. So yeah, definitely, I would say the number of responses I received that have some sort of tinge towards 'that' type of sexualization is definitely greater. I think a lot of that is about being a woman full stop, but I think being a bi woman definitely exacerbates it. And then yeah, I would say in gay environments there is this almost suspicion. I feel like people are suspicious of me when I say I'm bi and yet I am femme presenting. And, for all intents and purposes, I 'pass' and have a long term male partner. I am very aware that if I didn't constantly shout about things and wear rainbows, I could very happily lead a passing life. And that's something I have a small amount of guilt about, because I'm aware that a lot of people don't have that privilege. But also, I do sometimes wish I could just make that go away, because it would make my ability to feel part of LGBTQ+ spaces much better. 

Do you feel you have to present in a certain way to pass in an LGBTQ+ spaces? 

Absolutely. The first time I ever tried to go gay clubbing, I got turned away at the door for not being a regular. And in hindsight, I was with a mixed group of gay men and predominantly straight girls, because they wanted to go and see a musical theatre star who was performing there that night. And I had tagged along because I was 18 and was nervous and I'd never been gay clubbing, or kissed a girl or anything in my life! And I felt so crushed, having my wristband cut off me at the door and being pushed away! Because that's the first time I'd ever tried to make an effort to reach out, to potentially, at some point hit on someone, that's not a thing that came naturally to me. I mean, I'm entirely blunt with you, I'd never even masturbated until about three months before that. So I was very fresh out the box, in terms of expressing my sexuality. So that was crushing and I have made a concerted effort ever since, when I go to venues that I know to be pickier on the door requirements. 

I will make an effort to wear a t-shirt that's got a bi flag somewhere on it, or lots of earrings, or slightly cuffed jeans and trainers with rainbows on them. Things that make me... well, I inherently wear those things anyway, but it does make me feel a little bit shit that I have to amp that up so that I don't feel like I'm going to be rejected. And I'm sure some of that's a little bit of paranoia now, because it's never happened again and I've gone in various different outfits. And I was probably giving off very straight energy in those days. But at the same time, it does get something I'm very aware of. If I know I'm going to be in a queer space, I will make a concerted effort to look more outrageous than I would if I were going anywhere else. 

And you mentioned that you're... forgive me, your partner is male?

Yeah. Straight, Cis Male. 

Do you feel people knowing the gender of your partner affects the responses you get as well?

Yeah, absolutely. It means that people... The interesting thing is, straight people, I haven't really had a problem with. I've mostly found that the disbelief or the suspicion has come from within the community itself. Most straight people are frankly just shocked that you've ever kissed a girl and look slightly out of place and don't really know how to have a discussion. If they're not a random lechy couple perving on you. [LAUGHTER] Or a man who then looks like all his Christmases have come at once. But for the most part, I would say that particular aspect doesn't really affect my interaction with straight people. But definitely around gay or lesbian people, when they find out you've got a straight cis male partner, there is this assumption that you're playing house and then shagging a couple of women on the side to keep them happy.

I'm just gonna talk a bit about stereotype knowledge here or familiarity. Are there any words or phrases or stereotypes that you've heard, or that you know of, that have been associated with bi people?

 'Greedy,' 'slutty,' 'can't make your mind up,' 'trying to be trendy.' Yeah, 'promiscuous,' I suppose that comes down to 'slutty'. I think one of the problems for me is that in many ways I am all of them. And I feel guilty about it. 

Why? 

Well, because I am aware that... I don't feel guilty in some senses, I've come to a place where I've come to accept it and I just go, 'Okay, that is me. That's who I am.' The fact that the stereotypes happen to hit all the boxes is irrelevant. But I am also very aware that as someone who is very loudly and visibly bi, there will be some people for whom, probably not my inner friend circle, but acquaintances for who perhaps I'm the most, I don't want to say prominent, but I'm the most obviously bi person they know. In that I shout it from the rooftops, and I make a point of posting about it, and all sorts. If their perception comes from me, which is that I am loudly slutty and greedy and can never make my mind up about anything, it feeds into that stereotype. And it means that people like my friend who is monogamously married and very happy, and bi, then gets tarred with the same brush. And that it fuels that assumption. So, yeah, it's difficult, because I didn't really know all these stereotypes existed until I was them. And then went: "Oh, bollocks, I've fallen into what people expect!" Yeah, definitely, I think there is this assumption that people are all of them. And what I think is interesting, and I'm gonna say this carefully, I think there is the potential, a greater potential, for bi people to be all of those things. And that's not to say that bi people are all slutty, or greedy, or whatever you want to call it. But I think if you've come to a point where you've explored your sexuality enough to go, 'Actually, I can enjoy things outside of the box of what society says.' I tend to find that people who are willing to ask themselves those questions are more willing to explore things like non-monogamy, or kink, or sex work, or things which traditionally are looked down upon. Because once you've questioned society's assumption about your entire identity once, you might as well give it a go again if you're interested. So I think there's an awful lot of people who would probably be more promiscuous in life, or they would try more adventurous sex, who shy away from that. But I think for people who are bi or queer, there's more availability to give that stuff a go and more self acceptance in some ways. So I don't think the stereotypes are true. But I think it means for those of us who do want to explore that, there's definitely a better ability to do so and we're better suited to it in some ways. [LAUGHTER] 

Yeah! I like that. That's okay. [LAUGHTER] I totally agree. How about words or phrases of stereotypes for your gender? Do you think there are any, particularly for bi cis women? 

I mean, I think 'slutty' is a term that's generally not used for men. It's a term I definitely like to reclaim. I refer to myself as a slut, I'm quite proud of that. 

Have you read 'The Ethical Slut?' 

Of course I've read 'The Ethical Slut!' [LAUGHTER] Although, the irony is I'm probably nowhere near as slutty as I would like the world to think I am, in order to further the fact that it's totally fine to be slutty. I'm probably quite well behaved these days compared to how I used to be. But still, compared to the rest of the world, I think that makes me slutty.

That's a good reason! 

Yeah, but I don't think it's even COVID, I think it's just having got some of it out of my system. That sounds awful! [LAUGHS] But I was a very, very sheltered teenager who didn't really do very much. So when I did finally 'sow my oats,' so to speak, I went in hard! I popped my cherry and within three weeks I was at my first orgy. It's quite an escalation! 

That is impressive! [LAUGHS]

My first same sex experience was at an orgy, it's all quite... I did nothing or I went full pelt. So I think perhaps maybe I've reached the point where I'm at a happy medium now, and that's probably a good thing. But yeah I do think, to come back to it, I think 'slutty' is something that definitely tends to be reserved for women. And I think it's great that a lot of the queer and kinky community are reclaiming that word. I enjoy that. But also, I appreciate that for some people, that means that that word comes with a lot of baggage, and can be difficult. So it's a term I use affectionately about myself, but I wouldn't use it for someone else unless they were a close friend and I knew that that was fine. 

Absolutely. Thank you. And I'm sure you have (heard of it), but what do you understand by the term 'bi erasure'?

Ohh, I want to get a dictionary answer now, but that's pointless. So I would just say anything that diminishes the existence of bi people. I'm trying so hard to not use the word 'erasure' in my definition of erasure. 

Oh, you can!

I mean, 'What is bi erasure? The erasure of bi people!' [LAUGHTER] I think it's anything that makes being bi seem less valid than any other form of sexual or romantic attraction. It's anything that denies the existence of bi people. Because ultimately, given the fact that being bi is a spectrum, I would say, probably even the vast majority of straight or gay people are probably not a zero or six on the Kinsey Scale. But it's a question of how you identify and what you're comfortable with and where your sexuality sits. But it means that it's not the unusual option. It is, in many ways, the default. But it is never treated like that. So yeah, anything that diminishes the identities of people who are bi, anything that diminishes their relationships value as a result: this feeling of one relationship with a bi person being more or less valuable than other, but I think there's inherently a gender hierarchy in that as well. I think people tend to assume that if women date other women or femme people, it's not a real relationship. So that's 'just exploring' but dating a man that's a 'proper relationship'.

And you mentioned that you've had a couple of experiences where people have been quite negative, in a way, towards your feelings and how you've come out. Can you think of a particular instance where you feel like your sexuality has not been welcomed or accepted? 

Yes. Well, I sort of deserved it! [LAUGHTER] Okay, let me explain it. So I went out with a friend to a bar and there was a, I would say tipsy at this point, woman who kept coming over and being very nice to us and trying to buy shots. It was a gay bar. And she seemed like fun. And we were chatting and there was some very light flirting, and it became more apparent, the more that she drank, that she was actually on a date with someone there, who she had just basically left at the table and walked off. So at this point, I spot this quite disgruntled looking, fairly butch, lesbian, who is clearly a regular at the bar, and eventually came over and joined us. But the strange tipsy woman kept repeatedly buying our shots and essentially ignoring her date, it got very awkward. As soon as we clocked what was going on, I obviously stopped flirting and we were just a bit more careful. Because we realised she was, one: being very insensitive, and two: very drunk as we then realised as the evening went on. So at this point, the date came over, in the end we all started having a discussion, the slightly drunk woman essentially tottered off at some point. And I don't know, either way, we eventually ran away, but we were chatting at the bar. And my friend was explaining to the date that I was bi and that I was poly. And I can just remember her turning round in the middle of his pub and going, "It just sounds like she can't make a fucking mind up to me," really angrily. And it was difficult because it was tied up in that sense that she was clearly frustrated, but her drunken date had tried to throw herself at us. So I understand that there was anger coming from a different place as well. But it was probably the most blatant example I've ever experienced of someone completely disregarding my identity. And again, that was tied up partly in the fact that I'm non-monogamous, it was tied up partly on my sexuality, but it was said with aggression in a way that I've never experienced in any other setting. Luckily. I appreciate that I am very lucky for that. But that is probably, I would say, my most obvious example of outward hostility towards my identity. 

How did that make you feel? 

On edge, indignant. I definitely wasn't going to take that without saying something back. But I didn't want to start an argument, because that would just prove the point, in some ways about being volatile. So I tried to make a concerted effort to explain, in as relaxed a way as I possibly could given the situation, that actually I used to be a lesbian, I have always dated several people. It doesn't mean I've always got 50 million partners on the go, I have had spells in my life, quite considerable spells, where I've only been dating one person, but I still identify as being non-monogamous. And she seemed to respond better when I explained that. But it did make me feel kind of aggrieved that it had to be my responsibility to explain it.

How about any responses that you'd say have been overly positive? Or very nice responses, have you had anything like that? What counts as a positive response for you? This is different for most people.

That's the thing, I don't think I would aim for a positive response. For me, what I'm aiming for is for it not to be a response, almost. If someone doesn't bat an eyelid, to me, that's the best response, because it means that it's not an issue. I mean, I'm sure 14 year old me would have loved the theatrics of having the [exclaims dramatically] 'Oh! She's Gay! Oh dear!' [LAUGHTER] But really, quite frankly, I want an easy life. And if somebody just takes the fact that I'm bi and runs with it, that makes my life significantly easier. So I would say a lack of response, but in a way that doesn't suggest they're just ignoring it. Because you can feel the difference, you can feel when someone's just going 'And I'll disregard that.' Or someone's going, 'Okay, that's a thing then. It is what it is.' Another memory's popped up for me, in terms of, I suppose negative responses. I suppose it's not really negative in the sense that I didn't feel threatened or questioned. But I don't remember being particularly happy about it. So I joined a new job at a corporate company. And I'd never worked in a corporate environment before. And it was an events company. And there was an optics, there was a bar and an office Jaeger bottle. And I discovered within a couple of days that every Friday they all had drinks at about 3pm in the office. So it turned out to be someone's hen do on the first week I was there. And everyone started playing 'Never Have I Ever' in the office.

Oh, no.

Yep! In a predominantly female heavy environment because of [inaudible]. And they got to 'never have I ever kissed a girl,' and I drank. And pretty much the entire office was shocked. And this would have been 2020? No, 2019. And I can remember just having a moment of going: 'That shouldn't be shocking.' If I'd been openly discussing, I don't know, something ridiculously unusual or quite graphic. I don't know, if I'd drunk to say I'd swung from a chandelier and done it, I'm sure I could have made their hair curl if I wanted to, but that was clearly not the aim of the exercise. But the fact that they were all so shocked because I said I kissed a girl, it brought home to me that because I worked in a predominantly artistic and 'lefty' environment for many, many years, I've probably been in a bit of a bubble. And actually being in probably a more fair representation of all walks of society, suddenly I realised how weird that made me to people. 

How did that make you feel? 

Nervous because I thought I was on my best behaviour. So I was like, 'If this is enough, I can't be me in this space.' If me saying that I've snogged a woman is enough to make them shocked, given the lifestyle I lead and the fact that I'm naturally quite an open book, I am not going to be able to be myself in this space. And actually, that was one of the things that encouraged me to start trying to find more of a bi community outside of work. Because it's not something I'd ever actively sought out before but I decided a combination of that and then hearing a lack of understanding around pronouns, and things that I took for granted, made me realise that I needed some connection with a community that got me. It didn't need to be massively 'buddy, buddy,' I didn't need to be super good friends, but I needed to know there was a place where I could have discussions about 'This is weird, right? Why do people think this is weird? I don't think this is weird.' And that provided that for me. So yeah, it made me feel nervous, it made me feel angry that this was still a thing. Like, why is this shocking? That should not be shocking, especially as the majority of people there were my age or younger. So it wasn't even that I was in an environment where perhaps people hadn't grown up with it being openly discussed. These were very much 'Katy Perry, I kissed a girl' era people. Which just affirms the fact that I hate that song! [LAUGHTER] I particularly hated that song in my teenage years, because at that point, I identified as gay, and I was like, 'I literally can't come out because I am so scared of people... that I'll get kicked out of the changing rooms because people think I'm a massive lesbian.' And yeah, for all intents and purposes, I don't know Katy Perry's sexuality, but I get the impression that she was straight and playing as bi curious for the queerbaiting fan base. So yeah. But I think it goes to show, in many ways, that this stuff people call 'acceptance' really isn't, it's just parading around as acceptance. [LAUGHTER] And then it comes out when people are in environments where they feel comfortable enough to say it.

Drinking Jaeger shots. 

Yeah, we hadn't gone on to the Jaeger at that point, we were still sipping things. 

Oh, no! 

Still relatively sober. 

Wow. 

Yeah, unfortunately. 

Thank you for sharing that, they sound like challenging situations.

Oh the joy of furlough is I didn't have to go back there. [LAUGHTER] I was never planning to stay anyway. But it's just it gave me a kick I needed to get out earlier than intended.

Well done for doing that. [LAUGHTER] Can you think of an example of when your sexuality has been welcomed and accepted? 

I'm trying to work out what that means to me. I mean, when I've been in more bi spaces, it's definitely been accepted more. I think that's fairly obvious. I'm trying to think of specific examples there. Actually, I know. So I would say actually, it's been mostly quite accepted and just taken for what it is in the kink and non-monogamous spheres. I think there's quite, I don't know if it's coincidence or if it's just the kind of groups I've gravitated towards, but there tends to be quite a high percentage of people who are either bi, or hetero flexible, or queer or exploring their sexuality, but not in a way that makes it seem like a novelty 'tick box'. I think it's been far proportionately higher for me in the kink circles and the non-monogamous circles that I've moved in. I think those communities come with their own downsides, and that they tend to be quite incestuous. Because when you get a small group of people that's an even smaller minority within a minority, of course, that gets very, very small very quickly. But absolutely, I feel like those are spaces in which I've been able to say I'm bi, say my pronouns, say how I identify. Similarly have that conversation with someone else, and it just feels normal. It doesn't feel questioned. It doesn't feel like a novelty. It doesn't feel provocative to exist with that as your identity. And if anything, it almost feels like the norm. Yeah, I think that's probably the most accepting environment I've been in. And certainly when I've been to parties or festivals where there's a queer focus, but from that perspective, so it's queer but it's also accepting of kink and also accepting of non-monogamy, that tends to be the environment in which I find my sexuality is most of a non event, really. And that, to me, is what acceptance is about. There's being tolerated, there's being accepted and then there's literally people not even noticing. Which, I suppose, then potentially becomes another problem. Because if people don't notice at all, then you get erased, but, yeah, it's just a non issue. 

And do you think there's a connection between your bisexuality and your non-monogamy and your kink? This is a very personal question, so feel free not to answer. Do you think they go hand in hand necessarily? Or do you think they're different parts of your identity that tend to just kind of interlink a little bit? People have different opinions about this. We've spoken to some people who are non monogamous or poly, or part of the kink scene.  So we've met a lot of people who placed themselves in different spheres for that kind of identity, in that lifestyle choice. But do you think for you, there is a connection?

I think there are links there. I'm trying to untangle them. So this is, again, where I fall into that pattern of going 'I hate that I'm saying this because it plays into stereotypes,' but for me and for my reality it is true. I'm very bad at committing to anything, I am not a fan of decisions in life that can't be reversed and that cut off an entire wealth of human experience, if I'm honest.It is in many ways a fault and there are some situations in which it's an absolute pain in the ass. But there are some things that it means I enjoy or I value because of that. And for me, I do think there is an element of my non-monogamy that, not intentionally, but certainly now means that I don't have to never experience flirting with, dating, having sex, with a particular gender again. I enjoy connecting with people and seeing where things go. I would say I'm more non-monogamous than poly because I don't really have much emotional bandwidth and I'm a bit of a cold hearted bitch if I'm honest. So I'd rather be upfront with people than to put them in a situation where their expectations of me are never going to line up with reality. Because I have done that in the past when I was still exploring this stuff and hadn't quite realised yet that perhaps I just need to accept I'm quite transactional at times, and as long as everyone's upfront about that that's fine. But if someone said to me, 'You can never sleep with someone with a vagina again,' I would be gutted. [LAUGHTER] Similarly, if they said that about a penis, I would be gutted! And genitals aside, regardless of a particular gender expression, I would be gutted. The concept of never being able to do anything, or anyone, again, is an issue for me inherently. The fact that non-monogamy allows me to be able to explore that ethically in a way that is good for me, is good for my partner, is good for the partners is great. It's not the primary reason I started being non-monogamous. I fell into it by accident because my ex already was. And so I tried it out and found it kind of suited me. And also, it ties in so there's a slight parallel to the stuff about sexuality, in that I really value different kinds of relationships. I really enjoy the excitement of having someone new who you've never snogged and not knowing if they're going to be awful, frankly, or if it's gonna be really nice. [LAUGHTER] Just that, that novelty and that excitement and that frisson. Wow, that's a wanky word. And that getting to know someone.

I did enjoy that word, though. Thank you very much.
Good, thank you! [LAUGHTER] I enjoyed saying it even though I did feel like a wanker as it came out of my mouth! But that tension of not knowing how you're gonna respond to each other, that is priceless, that is glorious and I love it. And as much as I love my partner to pieces, we've been together for six years now. We fart in front of each other, we know everything there is to know, there's never going to be that same kind of energy. I still fancy the absolute fuck out of him, and we do many exciting things, but it's never going to be the same as exploring someone new. So, I think all that stuff interlinks. In terms of kink, there is definitely a link to my sexuality, in the sense that I find the role I take is very different depending on the gender of the person I am playing with. So I am switchy. Generally. It's not a hard and fast trend, but it's fairly solid. If I'm playing with someone who is masculine or male, I am very 'subby'. And if I am playing with someone I've perceived to be more femme or female. I'm much much 'toppier'. So, for me, there's a very distinct difference. Which is why I find it really interesting if I play with people who are either gender non-conforming, or in a group environment. Because then what aspect of me is going to come out? Who knows! It's a bit of a lottery. [LAUGHTER] And it's really interesting to see how my sexuality responds to that. And I think as well I tend to find, I think I alluded to this earlier, but if I'm in an environment, like a pub, for example, I would say probably eight out of 10 of the people I would fancy will be women. But if you asked me who I enjoy sex with more, I would say, it depends on what mood I'm in, really. But if you ask me who I would rather have a long term relationship with, it's generally men. So there are lots of layers going on there. Which means that I have the chance to experience all of those layers if I'm non- monogamous.

Thank you for your honesty, I really appreciate it. I do. So helpful. It's so interesting to hear. I do appreciate it. Thank you so much.

That's ok, that's why I said I would rather err on the side of caution with the anonymity and then we can see where we land, because then that means you get honest responses. And I figure it's more interesting if you get my reactive brain, rather than the 'I've rehearsed this answer! And this is a non offensive answer to the thing!' [LAUGHTER]

Thank you, I appreciate it. The next question is more of a conversation starter about representation in the media. So I think personally, for me, that the bi representation is there, but not enough, anywhere near. I think most people can name one or two healthy representations, but not many more. If you knew you were going to go see a bi show, or a show that advertised a bi character or bi actor in (it), what would you want to see? 

I'm going to approach that by saying what I wouldn't want to see. 

Okay, I'll take that too. 

Because I disagree with you. I actually think representation is bloody poor. In the sense that I think inherently one of the difficult things about being bi is that in order to be visible, there has to be an element of shouting about it in some ways. Because there is a natural assumption, if you see a character with a partner of a certain gender, you assume in many ways, and even as someone who is bi myself, I do this, I assume that that is their sexuality. And it's only if the show lasts two seasons and they get dumped or they date someone else. Or it happens to be a slightly different environment, where you will see that naturally, without the need for a giant plot device of 'this person is b!' I don't think it's necessarily just the fault of the media, but I think, inherently, because of the way sexuality for bi people works, versus the tropes and the things that the media relies on. It's very, very difficult to produce bi characters in a way that doesn't feel false, or stereotyped or overdone for the sake of it. So I welcome seeing examples of bi people just talking about their experiences. I love when you get shows or characters or, I can't bring anything to mind that I've seen so I'm going to talk generally, but like when you see things where you 'Go, okay, that's actually a real bi person's experience. I identify with that.' I don't need to have, 100%, the same experience and viewpoints, but I can see where that's coming from. And that's not coming from someone's gone: 'Well, we should probably have a bi character because that would be a little bit snazzy, wouldn't it?' So yeah, I would say off the back of that, the things that I wouldn't want to see, and then I'll probably flip them around and say what I would want to see. I wouldn't want to see things which are in any way representing bisexuality as this weird 50/50 split of 'Well, you have liked a girl and you have liked a guy!' I think anything that does that drives me titless. I don't know if you're gonna have to change the words for the archive! [LAUGHTER] 

No, they're all staying in, sorry! [LAUGHTER] 

I'm happy. I'm glad! I think anything that reduces it to some, particularly with bi women, anything that reduces it to: 'Oh, she's bisexual. Well, then she's a sex toy', essentially. The one that comes to mind is 'Dodgeball.' I love that film, but the moment at the end of 'Dodgeball,' where she kisses her partner and then he comes up and goes, "Oh, you're gay," and she goes, "No, I'm bisexual!" And snogs him too. And I didn't even notice that as a kid. And then when I got older, someone pointed it out to me and I went" Wow, I've probably internalised some of that and didn't even realise it was there!" So yeah, anything that reduces sexuality to just an add on. Anything that's just overly... militant isn't the right word. I think in any space where an identity is not often represented, it creates a vacuum. And sometimes what fills the vacuum is lots of activism. And activism is great. And I am very much a fan of it. But I think there can be, particularly if it revolves around things like Twitter where discussion can get quite heated, there can be quite polarised opinions. And then some of the art and the media that comes out of that can be quite polarising. And not always, in my opinion in a constructive way. Not to say the people shouldn't express how they feel, it's their identity, it's their choice, but it's just not for me. So I would say I don't want those. So what I would like is things that are accessible, but relatable to bi people. So things where I, as a bi person can maybe get one or two extra 'in jokes', but if I take my straight friend who has no idea, they're still going to enjoy it and they're still going to get something out of it. I think that happy mid ground. So it's not just like constant acronyms, discussions about bi versus pan. And then it's a one and a half hour debate and then someone gets accused of being transphobic. And I'm sitting there thinking my straight friend is never gonna get this! [LAUGHTER] I would say that's important to me, I think, yeah, realism. Not entirely, because I appreciate any art, any media, and there's going to be an element of fiction and fantasy, and maybe surrealism or whatever. And that's okay. But I think yeah, some sort of root in having spoken to a bi person, and not just being someone's fictional imagination of what bisexuality is. And then, I think I would be interested to see things that subtly… and I don't know how you do this, but start questioning the boundaries of how people either shout about being bi or are assumed not to be. I think it would be really interesting, for example, to have a show where everybody is bi by default and being straight is the strange thing. I appreciate that I'm just talking out of my arse here. 

No, I think it's an interesting concept. 

But I think it is interesting that we do have this default of people being straight. And I appreciate thats because, by our understanding as it currently is, in terms of the statistics and population, or whatever,  most people identify as heterosexual. But I do find it interesting. So, yeah, I think that's probably what I would like to see. 

Thank you very much. 

 Lots of glitter. 

Glitter? Okay. Yeah, we have that in the show. So we're fine. [LAUGHTER]