‘I feel like I've had multiple coming outs. And I don't think I'm finished.’
Pronouns: they / them
Content warning: References to biphobia, transphobia and challenges with mental health
Names have been changed and redacted to protect anonymity
In terms of your identity, how do you self-describe?
I would say that I'm a trans masculine, Demi boy bisexual.
And in terms of your sexuality, are there any terms that you strongly feel aligned to?
So, I'm bisexual, but I often won't use bisexual, because of stigma or because people feel that it's not inclusive. So I quite often just say queer. Then I do wonder, am I partaking in my own bierasure by not being audibly, loudly bi? I would say my sexuality is bisexual.
In regards to terms used to refer to those who identify under the Bi+ Umbrella, are there any terms that you disagree with or you don't like?
I think this is a whole thing amongst bisexual people, isn't it? And I really hate the term 'pan'. I think pansexual is just woke bisexuality, and that it it is founded in an misunderstanding of what bisexual is. So people assume that bisexual is like 'two', so attracted to male and female, right? But obviously, as we all know, there are more than two genders. So for people that are like, "Oh, you know, I'm pansexual because I'll date..." -and this has happened to me a lot, so this isn't me just ranting. It's like, "Oh, I'm pansexual because I'll date a trans man." And I used to identify as a trans man, and I'm like: “So you're invalidating me as a man because you're not seeing me as a man. You're seeing me as something different to man and therefore you need a different sexuality to be able to do that.” And it’s happened a lot. And my own individual experience of people that are pansexual, or identify as pan, is that they're transphobes. In a covert way or not. They wouldn't identify themselves as transphobes, they would identify themselves as the opposite. And that they're saying "Well I'll date anyone..." So that's, that's my little rant today, I do not like being called Pan.
You prefer the term bi or queer?
Yeah.
What feels good about those terms?
So, I think I like bi because it is factual. In that I am attracted to more than one gender and those without gender. That's a factual description of me. And for me, Bi, in one way, feels like quite a medical term, for want of a better word. And that my official title is bi. And queer... I come from a culture, I'm Jewish. So, I come from a culture (of) ultra orthodox, Hasidic Jews. I don't know if you are aware of what that means. So anything but straight is not okay. My family wouldn't even acknowledge that someone was... ‘queer’ was dirty, like 'mudblood' type. It was a 'Goyem' thing. It was like something that 'Goys' did. It wasn't something that Jews could experience.
Could you explain the term 'Goy' for me?
So, 'Goy' is a Yiddish word for non-Jews. So, you'll experience people who are saying that it's a slur. It's not a slur. It can be used as a slur, like anything can be used as a slur. But for me it's important that I speak my language because it's an endangered language, so it's important for it to be heard. So queer, for me, feels like it covers so much of my experience. I'm gender queer, I'm queer, sexuality wise and also politically and just how I choose to live my life is very queer, for want of a better word. And I suppose it's like claiming back something. I've been called queer like: 'Urgh', using the wrong pronoun: “‘she's’ queer”, or stuff like that my whole life. So it's like "Yeah, I am actually. Do you know what?" And taking the power out of that word, or the negative power I should say.
When did you first become aware of your being bisexual?
So, I've been on a complicated journey with my sexuality and gender, in that I identified as a lesbian for a long time. So I suppose to use medicalised terms: a first experience same sex attraction. When I was about 10 years old. I'd gone to the theatre, and there was this woman, or I assume that she was a woman, who was playing the lead role and I just felt so drawn to her. It was something I'd never experienced, I felt like I was in love. Now, clearly, what was happening was that I was experiencing sexual thoughts or feelings for the first time. And I was absolutely convinced if I got to speak to this woman she would feel the same and we would have this... clearly I was a child, so she wouldn't. I was about 10 years old. Because of my cultural background, I kind of knew that it was never going to be okay. It wasn't something that we did. And I suppose I then bought into compulsory heterosexuality for myself, that wasn't necessarily forced on me explicitly. I remember after I'd experienced this at the theatre, I went home and we watched 'The Little Mermaid' the next day. And I don't know if you've seen the film, but Ursula sings the song called 'Poor Unfortunate Souls.' And in the middle, there's a bit where Ariel is like 'But if I give you my voice, I'll never see my father and sisters again." And that stung me so badly at that time. I just remember like crying because I knew that if I was gay - bisexual didn't exist in my world - then that was it for me and my family. That was it, it just couldn't happen.
So as I said, I just thought I was attracted to women. And from then on had my first relationship at 13 or 14. And it wasn't until I think I was 19 when I finally accepted that I was attracted to men as well. I felt so much shame around that. I don't know if you spoke to other people so far that have maybe discovered their bisexuality from being lesbians. But especially when I was younger, I mean, I'm only 34 now, "When I was a lad!" [LAUGHTER] Yeah, early 2000’s: if you were bisexual, you would not have any lesbian friends. When I came out as bi, or when I started a relationship with a man, so many of my lesbian friends just disappeared. Or the nice ones would just quietly disappear. The others would be like quite aggressively anti bisexual women. Sorry, it's quite upsetting to think about it actually. And now a lot of them are … like ‘TERFs?’ It just makes me think, I feel sad for them, that if they're in a relationship - I mean, I'm poly, so I don't necessarily have non monogamous relationships - But, I can't fathom starting a relationship with someone saying "Yeah, we want to do this." If you decide to be mono(gamous), and then just spending the whole of that relationship worried someone's going to leave you. And that doesn't seem a very healthy position to be in. And that's what I experienced, where a lot of my friends who are lesbians, that they couldn't. And the way that they would talk about bisexual women would be awful. And I'd be sitting there, hiding this relationship that I was really excited about, and I couldn't possibly say anything, because I would lose all my friends. And that's what happened.
And how long ago was that?
Oh, that was like when I was at 21. So 13 years ago?
And has coming out been part of your experience?
Oh, yeah, I feel like I've had multiple coming outs. And I don't think I'm finished. I suppose I don't see it as a one step. I feel like it's a never ending thing. And I think especially when you're trans, and I am, I have decided to medically transition. So then that is endless coming out. I remember, (the) first time I experienced coming out. It's probably not relevant to this interview, but I came out as a lesbian, and as I said, I lost my family. And then I came out as bi and I was out to my friends. So when I then realised I don't actually think I am a woman, because I had been told by these lesbian friends that to be trans, or to be a trans man, was to erase butch lesbian experience. We both, hopefully, know that that's absolute nonsense. [LAUGHTER] But that's how they thought, so I didn't want to lose the friends that I had kept from that period of my life by then coming out again. But it got to the point I just couldn't hold that in. Then I guess I came out as trans. And it was very "I'm a trans man. I am man!" And because of the stigma around being bisexual, and male... if I (had) male partners, would just keep them secret, or it'd be a very casual thing. Like, “we can hang out, and by that have sex. But... we'll never be partners.” And then when I came out not as binary in my gender, things changed. And it was a positive experience. And I would say that if I met a man now, I would have a relationship and be very open about that. ButI don't view coming out as a one stage thing, and I suspect I'll be coming out for my whole life I suppose. Especially in intimate relationships, I'm never going to, without being crude, I'm never going to look like a cis man. So there's always going to have to be a discussion of:"Hey before we do this, I'm trans."
When you have come out you mentioned that you've had a negative response from a group of people. Have you had any other responses that you'd like to talk about?
I think when I came out as trans it wasn't a shock to a lot of people. So I used to run a lot of sex positive events, so a lot of my conversations with these people would be quite overtly sexual. And I ran a workshop about writing fantasies and sex menus and stuff. So the things that I would talk about that were mine, when I look back at them, it was very clear that I wasn't female. Because of how I was talking about things and how I was engaging with things. So I think when I came out as trans, a lot of my close friends were sort of relieved in a sense, in that: "Oh okay, they finally made that realisation for themselves." And I relatively recently got back in contact with my Auntie so then obviously, I had to have the conversation with her like: "This is, you know, I'm trans." And she was like: "Oh." It was really positive, because she had said "It's really awful having to watch you struggle so much with your gender, especially in such a patriarchal, fixed way." And then when I came out to her, because she said "I assume you're straight then? Because you like women,." And I'm like: "Oh, no, no, I would say that I was bi." And, to me, it was really powerful that it didn't mean anything to her. It was just like: "Oh, okay," which doesn't make for a very sensational story. But it was awesome that it was like a "Oh, okay, whatever," type (of response).
Is your Auntie particularly religious?
No, not anymore. She was outcast from the community.
I’m sorry to hear that. And you mentioned it was kind of a very calm, "Oh okay" kind of response. How did that make you feel?
I think really beautiful, really serene. I don't know if this is too exposing, but I have borderline personality disorder, which I don't know if you know anything about, comes with a lot of fears of abandonment. So I go into a lot of situations assuming, especially (in) interpersonal relationships, that they're going to leave me. And they're going to abandon me, they don't care, etc, etc. So I had gone into this conversation with my Auntie in an actually quite combative way, in quite a provoking way. So, for her to be like: "Oh, yeah, that's fine," it made my soul sing. I felt so held by this woman that's actually just doing what she should do. This isn't actually an extraordinary act of kindness, it's just being a decent human being. But because I hadn't experienced that before from (my) family. It felt... Yeah, I can't explain it. Just so soulful and so connecting.
So you'd call that a positive experience then I guess?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Have you had any other experiences that you think may have been negative, for want of a better term?
I used to be very femme presenting, so I've had- which I suspect is (a) very common experience- it being very sexualized. I couldn't possibly just have a relationship with a woman because of our shared love of trees, or because actually I just quite like her. It's always going to be sexual, a hundred percent sexual. And being turned away from clubs. So I used to live in Portsmouth. I suppose this is actually probably more femme phobia than biphobia. But because I used to live in Portsmouth, which is quite a relatively small city, and there used to be a club which is a gay bar. And they made the women queue up separately to the men to get into the club. And they'd let all the men in, and then they would (let in) 'acceptable' lesbians. Which is problematic as fuck. I'm sorry, excuse my language.
Oh, swear away! [LAUGHTER]
You couldn't be too butch. And you couldn't be like me, ultra femme. Because the amount of comments that were really biphobic, and two of the security guards were lesbians. And they'd ask you: "Oh are you just hunting for a threesome?" No this is a pretty shitty club! Why would I come here for a threesome? Swipe a life out. I just want to get drunk on alcopops and dance, you know? So there's that experience. Being unicorn hunted? I don't know if you are aware of the term?
Yeah, so explain what that means to me?
So, because I'm in the sex positive scene and as, (someone who is) poly, you would be unicorn hunted by usually a cis/het man and his bi curious girlfriend for threesomes, basically, or for sex. Or they would say: "Come and have sex with my girlfriend. And I'll just watch." And then 'just watching' becomes: “actually I'll invade your space and your boundaries.” Which is always just really grim, I just wish people would be honest. And thankfully, it doesn't really happen to me anymore.
Why unicorn?
Oh, because it's so rare. So it's so rare for someone actually to want to do that. So the unicorns are the bi women that are... Some people do genuinely enjoy hooking up with couples for casual things, and that's really valid. You do you. But those people are very rare. Hence ‘unicorns’.
So you pick a mythical beast, a mythical creature? [LAUGHTER]
The thing is, if the couples looking for these people are actually semi decent, semi honest about their intentions, I imagine there's actually a lot more Bi women up for partaking. But because they are so deceptive about what they want. So that happened a lot, thankfully it doesn't happen anymore. But comments around 'Oh, you just haven't made your mind up', just that kind of bullshit. And for quite a long time, my doctors didn't have bisexual listed as as a sexuality.
Really?
Yeah, because I was, at the time, having quite a lot of medical intervention. And I would have to fill out these monitoring things and ‘bisexual’ wasn't a thing. They couldn't conceptualise that I had both male and female partners, just -
So on the form what did it say?
Lesbian or gay, or heterosexual.
That was it, the three?
Yeah.
Wow, I didn't realise that.
Yeah. I haven't always lived in London though, So maybe we were just less woke up north.
And these instances that you just mentioned, how did they make you feel?
I think when I was rejected from the clubs, and the unicorn hunting, it was just like I was a sexual being, I wasn't a human being. I wasn't someone with complex needs. I wasn't someone who could love and be loved. I was just there to be sexual gratification for someone else. And also that my sexual gratification wasn't important. Or my needs in a relationship or in an exchange weren't important. And I suppose the medical stuff… I’m quite anti establishment, so I kind of accepted that that's what the establishment does, it erases people. But I do wonder whether that was just a defensive mode for me. And actually, it did really bother me. I think it bothered me because… it bothered me because it should bother me. Why wouldn't it bother me? That I can't be represented.
And do you think being a bisexual person of your gender affects the responses you get now?
Yeah.
In what ways, do you think?
I think there's several ways. The fact that there's a campaign running that has t shirts and [Inaudible] that say 'bi men exist', is very poignant in that I don't think a lot of people realise men can be bisexual. I think less bi men come out due to homophobia, biphobia, patriarchy, toxic masculinity and all sorts of things. And I found… again, especially with doctors, as soon as I come out as a bi man, it's assumed that I'm taking lots of risks, risk taking behaviour. I was at the doctor's trying to sort out hormones, completely irrelevant, and he just asked if I partake in Chem sex. And I was like: "Sorry??" I was so blown away. And he (was) like: "Oh, because it's a big thing amongst bi men." And it is, and I do, but that's not relevant to why I'm here. It all comes down to being seen as not human. Just being seen as ultra sexual in every interaction that I've had, especially about being trans masc and a bi man. If you go on Grindr, people will say 'no bi men', it's as if you're tainted by having been close to vaginas. And, to be fair, there's internalised biphobia in that other guys will only sleep with bi men, because then it's not 'homo'.
Really?
Oh, yeah. There's loads of research projects (that) could be done on Grindr alone in toxic masculinity and stuff. Yeah, I and I found when I came out as a bi man; if I wanted to be seen in gay circles, if I went to Soho, I would become ultra camp. I would literally just put on this facade. I'm not a camp person. I would say that I'm like relatively femme in certain ways, but I'm not camp. But to feel that I had a role in that society, in that sphere, in that culture, I had to change part of myself.
That you had to validate your right to be there?
Yeah. I'm too old to be a twink, I don't go to the gym enough to be a muscle boy, where do I fit in? And okay, I can overly perform my femininity which then becomes slightly misogynistic, and also quite triggering as a trans masc person.
Do you think the gender of the person you're with affects the response you get as well?
I think it's hard because I haven't actually had relationships with men for quite a long time. Especially since coming out as trans. So I can't really answer that- Well, no, like, I think people assume that I would be with a woman. And I was seeing someone, a man, actually for a short period of time, and there was always this shock of like "Oh, okay.." whenever I would say "Hey, look, this is my partner, or the person I'm seeing." And there would be a shock. Even though these people knew that I was bi.
Do you think they're shocked because of your gender identity?
Yeah I think they were shocked that I could possibly be in a relationship with a man. (They thought) it would be a casual thing, not an actual relationship.
Why do you think that is?
I think it's heteronormaty, isn't it? Actually, I don't know. I can't answer that question because I don't understand it. Because maybe it's because people are just used to seeing me with femme aligned people and mainly attracted to femme aligned people. So maybe it was just that was what they were expecting. Maybe it's bi phobia, who knows? I've never asked, to be honest with you.
You've already mentioned quite a few stereotypes and phrases that get coined in with the bisexual community. Are you aware of any other words or phrases or stereotypes that are kind of pinned to bi people?
Promiscuous, traitors?
Traitors?
Yeah. I think this comes especially from radical feminist lesbians. And that it's an easy way out, that you don't then have to experience all the heartache of coming out, as if that's only experienced by lesbians or by gay men. And that being bisexual harms ‘the cause’, for want of a better word. That we're just people that, basically, the establishment can say: "Well, look, they can choose their sexuality, because sometimes they choose to be with men, and sometimes they choose to be with women." So, I feel that that comes up a lot in quite radical circles, or it used to. I think my issue in answering some of these questions is that I live in a bit of an echo chamber. I had a realisation that "Do you know what, I'm just not going to have people that don't add something to my life in my life." So got rid of a lot of people that were making these stereotypes. Or using these words, because it didn't serve me to have them in my life. So apologies.
Don't apologise! I'm interested to know why you felt the need to create this bubble for yourself. What made you decide to do that?
I was just fed up of having to self censor. And think about who could know what and who knew what, and, "Can [my partner] come to this party? You know, who is going to make snide remarks?" I've left now, but I started a course run by an awesome transformational coach. And part of that was thinking about what your values are, what are your key values. And one of my top key values is authenticity. So, I feel like I have to be authentic at all times, otherwise I don't feel aligned in myself. And I got fed up with not feeling aligned. So I created a bubble where I could just be myself. I could say: "Do you know what? I thought I was this thing and now I don't think I'm that thing." And be accepted. "Hey, here's my partner, uhmmm.. I don't know 'Bob', and here's my other partner, 'Sandra,' and here's my other partner, 'gender neutral name that people can't work out what they are.' [LAUGHTER] "No-one knows what's in their pants!" Yeah, I think it was just really important to me. I'm 33 years old, and I just can't be arsed with the crap anymore. I can't be arsed with pretending. I haven't got the energy, I haven't got the time in my day. Who needs that shit, right?
You mentioned it already, but what do you associate with the term 'bi erasure'?
Not being seen as a valid sexuality. So I suppose that's the erasure of bisexuality. To me, bi erasure is also what I touched upon about not being seen as a human. Being unicorn hunted or not being represented on forms. Being seen just inherently as a sexual risk taker. And also not someone that you would have a relationship with, just not being seen as human. To me, that's erasing bisexual people. Like we’re just here to meet someone's needs. Also thinking about when I was a member of [a bisexual activism group], and one of the key campaigns we did was (for a) bisexual man that was a refugee from... Oh my god, I've forgotten the country. Basically, he had fled his country to a European country, again, that I've forgotten. And a very common experience of bisexual people seeking refugee status is that: "Well, you can, you can pretend 50% of the time," -if we're talking about people that use percentages - "so, just pretend all the time." If you're a man, then just: "Oh, you like women 50% of the time. So just do that all the time. And you'll be fine. We don't need to give you refugee status. Just pretend."
It's quite a common experience and (it’s) literally erasing someone's (identity)... So at that point, you're encouraging people to lie and say that they're gay or lesbian. And that is literal erasure of bisexuality; that you either have to lie and say that your homosexual or have your application denied and have to live somewhere that's inherently unsafe.
And why do you think bi erasure is so prevalent?
Because the world is in a binary way. The world just sees everything in a binary. People don't seem to sit in the grey very much. This really annoys me, because I have BPD, right? And one of the key things is... you blur saints or devils. And the inability to sit in the grey. But it's not me, it's you guys. Everyone else doesn't seem to be able to sit there. That there can be multiple reasons for things. Marmite has made its money on, 'you either love it or hate it,’ right? And, I could list what I'm having for dinner and people will be like: " Oh I hate that, or ah, I love that." There's no in the middle. But, you see this with gender: ‘you're a man or you're a woman.’ When you're pregnant: "What are you having?" And that becomes a really key question; for people to sort people into really easy boxes. Before you've even literally taken your first breath, you're in a box. And there's multiple answers for this but I believe it's capitalism, because capitalism needs an easy target. And “Okay there's a gay man, what do gay men like?”, being stereotypical. “Okay, so if we just throw a loud party with camp music, they'll be drugs…” There's stereotypical things: “Okay, what do lesbians like? I don't know, walking, Cotswolds?” It's like the world can't deal with anything in the middle, or anything that isn't firmly, easily identifiable, I suppose. “How do we, how do we target bi women? What do bi women like? Do they like the Cotswolds, or do they like 'Sex in the City?’” [LAUGHTER] “What do they like? Oh, my God, we'll have to treat the people as individuals!”
Have you seen many representations of bi people in the media?
'You, Me and Her,' I think that's the title. Anyway, so a straight presenting couple, their relationship is failing and they decide to hire a sex worker. A female sex worker. And then the woman, I think they fall in love or something. It was so cringy I couldn't watch it because while that relationship developed into just a normal relationship, it started off from a very sexualized place. And the sex worker still has sex with the husband. It was trash, basically, absolute trash. The only positive bi representation, and it's problematic, because it's a cop show and I'm not a fan of cops. 'Brooklyn Nine Nine'?
I heard of it.
Rosa Diaz, she just is having a relationship, and then I think they have a party, or something. It was just like: "Oh yeah, I'm bi." And that's it, that's how she introduces it. It just felt very natural in how I would come out, and how I would, in a new situation (and) I introduced my partner, like: "Oh, I'm bi." Negative… I don't know if you've watched 'The L Word.' I wouldn't bother. But, obviously, it was aimed at lesbians, it was about lesbians. And there was like a bi woman, and they just treated her awfully, with so much suspicion. And I suppose it was quite triggering for me. Because of what I had experienced. Which is, again: ‘you're an 'interloper', that you're a 'spy from the streets'. Yeah, (you’re) trying to work out some lesbian secret or something. And I can't remember a single like bi man representation.
Apparently 'Schitt's Creek' is very good for that.
Oh, yeah. I yeah. I haven't watched it but people keep recommending it.
If you knew you were going to see a bi character in something, regardless of gender, or what the show was... what would you want to see?
I suppose that it's not the core of their being. I know when you first come out, that sometimes that then does become a core part of your (being)... for whatever reason. It's happened to me, and then you sort of settle into your identity and it becomes, maybe not less important, but less at the core of stuff. Like: "I'm bi, that's a thing." I don't typically have any strong (idea of) what they should look like or what they should do.
It's just a thing.
Yeah, that it's just a thing. If it's gonna be a show, I would really like to see more bi men. And I feel that bi women especially are in shows with sexual scenes that are very explicit. Or as explicit as they can possibly get away with. Whereas I don't think that they would represent bi men having sex the same way? So, I suppose I'd want it not to be about the hetero guys, what's going to make the heteros comfortable or uncomfortable.
And we've talked a bit about positive responses you've had in regards to your sexuality. In what spaces do you feel most welcomed and accepted and that you can be celebrated?
In other explicitly queer spaces. I will look out for other people that explicitly identify as queer. Rather than LGBT. A fine example is that, as I said, when you're looking for a new housemate. And you can sort of tell, and this is really judgmental of me, maybe. When someone is responding, or how they're writing about themselves. Were they like, strongly aligned with I would say (is) mainstream gayness, or mainstream Bi-ness. Whereas in amongst explicitly queer people, be it people that only have sex with men or only have relationships with men or women or whatever. I still feel more comfortable around these types of people. And even when I was still pretending to be a woman, I joined a bisexual women's group. It was very corporate women... At one party, I did see a couple of them take their wedding rings off. And I'm like: "You know, there's a whole way you can have relationships where you don't have to lie! You can just communicate your needs with your husbands!" Anyway that's just me asking if the monos are okay. [LAUGHTER] Sorry!
Do you feel like your being poly is tied up in your bisexuality?
I suppose so, yes. But then I can feel myself getting a bit defensive. Not because of you, but a lot of people will say: "Oh, I wouldn't date a bisexual person because they need both sexes." That's not what my poly is about, but I suppose the two are inextricably linked. Because I do have needs that certain genders or certain relationships can't meet. So I suppose it's really quite linked actually. After all my defensiveness.
Do you think it's possible to be bi and to be monogamous?
Absolutely, yeah. You do you. I'm very here for mono people, I wish less people would try and force themselves to be poly or open, because A) it's really obvious and B) it causes a lot of heartache. Absolutely. And my big thing is femme presenting people that are in relationships with men, how difficult that is, how they are also sort of seen as traitors or interlopers or whatever. Because: “Are you really though? Because, you know, I've not seen you with a woman, but you know...." It really upsets me. Absolutely bisexual people can be mono, if that's what they are. And to me, being mono/ monogamous, or polyamorous is actually inherent. So I'm bisexual, I'm trans, I'm poly. These are things that have been set by biochemistry, or whatever your belief around sexuality being set and gender is, that it's inherent in me. I have tried to be monogamous. And it just doesn't work for me, because that's not how I want to form relationships.
Is there anything else you'd like to talk about?
I would really, like someone to talk to the lesbian community. I really feel like most biphobia comes from the lesbian community. And that isn't letting off gay men, because I think there's also a lot of biphobia from gay men. But I think maybe because relationships are a little bit more transient amongst gay men, although that's problematic thinking and also, what comes first, the stereotype or the behaviour? Someone needs to talk to the lesbians. We're okay, it's fine. I mean, they won't be interested in me anymore anyway. What is it that makes lesbians scared of bi women? Why? Why do you care so much? If you're in a monogamous relationship, you're in a monogamous relationship. What does it matter about who someone was with before and who someone will be with in the future? At the moment they're with you!
I suppose it is a very binary way of thinking, isn't it? And also I think so very weird, the lesbian that showed me the most biphobia was one that had been married to a man and had children. And so I suppose maybe it's internalised stuff and obviously people legitimately have a lot of trauma related to cis men.
But also I feel like the queer scene is so small, that for quite a lot of people, every other queer person is sort of measured up. "Do I fancy this person?" Whereas, straight people just meet each other, and they've met each other. And they go about their day, or they become friends or whatever. Whereas for queer people, I suppose, and I've done it. "Do I fancy this person?" “Do I have a chance with this person?" I don't do (that) any more, other than if I actually do fancy them.
But, hopefully, then it's apparent. You don't have to question yourself: "Do I?"
Yeah, but I think maybe it's an older queer thing, in that we didn't have a lot of spaces, you know, because, I've been out for years now. And even in the last five years there's been big changes. When I was young, when I was a lad, non binary people didn't exist. There were trans people. And mainly if someone said they were trans, they were a trans woman. Trans men didn't exist, which obviously was nonsense, but that was how it was.