‘I’m meeting this whole other side of myself for the first time..,’
Pronouns: he / him
Content warning: strong language, reference to religious homphobia (homosexuality as illness)
The names used in this interview have been changed to preserve the anonymity of those mentioned.
Which pronouns do you prefer?
That's really weird, because it's not... I've only become aware of this recently. So it's not something I've really thought about. In terms of myself.
Him... him/he. My gender isn't in question - that's not something that I think about ,but it's certainly something I've noticed more and more on Twitter feeds. People will put their preferred pronouns on the name of their Twitter feed and stuff, and it's really an issue that in the last 6 to 12 months I've started becoming aware of. But then I'm old. So it takes me a while to catch up to things anyway. [LAUGHTER] I'm a good five years... no, 10 years behind everybody anyway. Because I'm almost 50! It's tough for old bastards like me to keep up to speed with what you young people are up to. You know, 'woke' was a phrase that kind of came out of left field for me. In terms of how it was used. I find it interesting because there were some usages of it on Twitter and on Facebook and on the TV where I was like: "That's weird. It kind of sounds like you're using it as a negative, almost." As an accusatory thing. "Oh, God, that guy's so 'woke'", or "That person is so 'woke'." And the derivation of it is simply somebody who is aware of social injustice, on a level that some people aren't. And I'm like: "Oh, okay? " It's just kind of weird to me now that it's being used as a derogatory term, by people who I would side with as well. You know?
It's almost akin to ‘snowflake’, isn't it?
Right! Half the time, I just ignore those because I think it's just white noise to the argument. They're like red flags to the bull. They're just there to kind of prick at people's triggers, to set them off at the start of the conversation. So I tend to try and ignore all that. I have had a situation where I've had to ask an old friend that I went to college with who was known- I'll change his name to 'Steve' - who is now called 'Jessica'. And we did have to have that conversation about, you know, how do you want to be referred to? And it's hard for me. And she, and I'm having to consciously make the decision to say that, gets annoyed with me because... And it's not because I'm trying to be rude to her. It's just I have such a back history with this person as a guy, that my brain hasn't flicked that switch yet.
It’s always gonna be 'Steve' for me and she isn't. So I'm in the middle of that transition with her at the moment. So back to your original question, He/Him.
What's the term you prefer to use for yourself in terms of your sexuality and your identity?
If we're talking specifically about sexuality, then I would use the word ‘bisexual’, but that's just because that's the term I'm most familiar with. That's a term that was around when I was a teenager. It wasn't necessarily a positive term, either. Just for context, I'm almost 50, so I grew up in the 70s. Not a particularly progressive time when it comes to anything really. Race, sexuality, any kind of gender issues, any of that. It was all pretty horrendous. And I grew up in a really, really conservative upper working class family. I've never been able to figure that class thing out. So bisexual, but I mean, I hear that, I hear these other terms that may be more applicable. You know, gender fluid, or I'm not sure. That's more to do with gender, though. This is my ignorance coming out. Because it depends on the day, it depends on the person that I'm attracted to, it depends on whatever the context is that you're asking me. I feel 'gayer' on some days than I do others.
This is all very new to me in terms of being open about it. And it was really only a year and a half, possibly less than that a year ago, when I came out to a friend. And she was just like: "Oh, I knew." And I was like: "Bloody hell. You're smarter than I am." She was like: "No, I've got a very good gaydar." [LAUGHTER]
A friend also said the same thing to me. She's like: "....Yeah." [LAUGHTER] I was like, "Dammit!"
She is amazing like that. Having said that, it was obviously something I was aware of, I'd say, from my teenage years. So I'd say bisexual as a placeholder. But I'm still exploring it. I'm still talking about it with friends, and I'm still thinking about it. So who knows where I'll be in six months.
That's great. And are there any terms you strongly disagree with?
What, in terms of myself? Or in general? I think you can call yourself whatever you want, as long as you know what it means and you're clear about it. I don't really care. You can call yourself what you like. 'Pansexual', I have to admit, I'm not entirely sure what that means. I think I know, can you describe it?
So quite a few people call themselves bi/ pan. So I think 'bisexual' means, for a lot of people, that there is a ‘either man or woman’, like, they're attracted to generally.
Oh!
And I think pan... as in gender does not come into it when they find someone attractive. People, for example, go: "Don't call me queer," or "Don't call me bi." So I'm just curious to see what... people feel, you know, what they feel comfortable with?
Well, based on what you've told me, I think I'd probably be I'd be fine with queer or... I think possibly queer is loaded. Certainly, as a kid, I grew up in the 70s, my teenage years were the 80s. 'Queer' was definitely a word that was used as a word of hate. You know, you're putting somebody down in the playground: "You're queer!" You know, so it's one of those trigger phrases that I think people can use to negative effect. But in terms of the positive of it now, and it feels like it is being reclaimed. In that context, what you've just described? Yeah, I guess queer.
It's weird, because labels and people wanting very specifically to be put in a particular pigeonhole is kind of antithetical to what I experienced as a kid growing up. When I was a kid growing up in the late 80s, early 90s, it was all about breaking those labels down, it was all about knocking those walls down and going: "Oh, no, no, we're not all in boxes, we're all... duh duh duh." And it feels like in terms of sexuality, that that's kind of going backwards on some level, because people want these specific labels to describe them. They want to be put in these little boxes, and others don't. They want it to be more free and fluid. And I think I'm probably more on the free and fluid. I mean, I'll do what I want with who I want, who cares? And I think that putting a label on it, like 'queer' or 'bisexual' or 'pan' or, whatever, may be useful for a dating app, may be useful as a shorthand for a conversation. But I think in terms of an identity, it's not who I see myself, as an identity. I don't, I don't self identify as a queer man, or a bisexual man or as a straight man, I'm (me). What is that? I am a dad, I am a this, I'm a that, I'm lots of different things. I'm not any one thing. So when people, say, strongly identify as a particular thing, I struggle with that sometimes. Not because I disagree with them, not because I don't understand it, or, for instance, I won't go on an LGBTQ march or something like that. But because I just grew up at a time when we were trying to knock all those barriers down. And now it feels like in some areas, people are starting to build them up and box themselves in again. And I think we've just got to break away from that. We've got to stop limiting ourselves. We've got to just be... we are what we are.
I got into trouble recently with a friend talking about how I long to live in a time where there aren't any more, you know, gay marches, or prides or anything. And he like: "What do you mean?!" And it's like: "No, no, no, I don't mean that. I think it's fantastic that there are and there should be. But wouldn't it be great if there was a time when race, sexuality, whatever, doesn't mean anything anymore? It's not a defining factor." Do you know what I mean? People are just what they are and we all get on. It's very hippie. You can see that I was born in the 70s.
‘Knock the barriers down man! Why can't we just be, like, cool with each other? Party on dude!’ All that. [LAUGHTER]... I probably just got myself into a lot of trouble for not being 'woke' enough.
When did you first become aware of your sexuality?
I'm going to say my mid teens, because I had some experiences with guys and they weren't unpleasant. But I was also attracted to women. I seemed to skew more towards women at that time, we're probably talking about 16/17 (years old), something like that. I'd left school, which was a very oppressive kind of, you know, think ‘Grange Hill’, but worse. Similar kind of atmosphere. And suddenly I was, I was doing drama, I was doing A-levels, I was surrounded by people who thought the same way I did, my eyes were being opened to all kinds of different things. I was being liberated, if you will. And so I had these experiences, and they weren't negative. But it just didn't go anywhere. And I just thought: "Okay". And after a while, I just thought: "Okay, well, maybe it was just a passing thing. Maybe it's just what kids do when they go to college, that they experiment and stuff happens." But then dotted throughout my life, there have been moments and other occasions where I've paused and thought: "Maybe there is something going on here." So I would say my early teens was when I was aware of it, on a kind of background noise level. But I didn't really do anything about it. Because I was, on just a base level at that time, more attracted to women. It's really only in the last five years that I've had to go: "No, this, this is actually a really important part of who you are, and how you see the world. And you've got to be honest, not only with the people around you, but you've got to be honest with yourself about what you find attractive in people, and in the opposite sex and in the same sex as you. There's no point at your age just letting it trundle off in the background." And I probably would have been very comfortable too. But various circumstances happened. I found myself just alone one night, thinking about it and going: "I really need to start paying attention to this side of myself." And it was then that I had the conversation with a friend. And when I was speaking to her and kind of opening up to her about who I thought I was, I was essentially doing it to myself as well. It was just an excuse for me to say it somebody else. Because I needed to hear myself saying those words to somebody else, because that was in some way owning it. Because I've never really spoken to anybody. And it wasn’t out of shame, it wasn’t out of wanting to hide anything. It was just a mixture of all kinds of different things, circumstance and environment. And my upbringing just meant that I just left this dormant part of my personality and sexuality, to just hum along in the background without dealing with it. And it wasn't really after that conversation with my friend that I started exploring it again. And just going: "No, I need to, I need to be honest. Because it’s obviously a very important part of me, and I’ve just let it, you know, quietly drift off in the background.” So it’s been ongoing.
And so is that what you would say 'coming out', the term, means to you?
Yeah, I mean I had various friends over the years that came out to me. And having now experienced it really late in life, I could see what it is. It's not just them wanting to tell you because they think you don't know, it’s you owning it yourself and opening up about it and making it public. Does that make sense?
It does, it makes perfect sense.
There's a liberation to it as well. I remember crying my eyes out after having spoken to my friend because it was a weight off my shoulders that I didn't even know I had. It was, as I said, just background noise and suddenly that background noise just went. It went away and it was like: "Ah, I’m me now. I never knew I wasn't.” How weird is that?
Yeah. Amazing. Thank you. And after having started to talk to people about it, what sort of responses have you received?
All the people that I've told have been fine. All the people I haven't told, I suspect their reaction would be otherwise. And that's my little early warning system kicking in. There's quite a few people that, as yet, I haven't told. And I'm holding back because I know it's not going to be easy. Also, in the sense that I think they would probably find it easier if I just said: "I'm gay." They would, on some level, they'd understand it. And they'd go: "Okay, fine, whatever." They may have issues. I don't know. ‘Queer, pansexual, bisexual’.... I can hear the questions already, because I've heard other bisexual people, you know, talk about them. "Hey, wait, does that mean if you're married to someone that you can just like go out and fuck other guys?" And you’re like: "No, no, it's not. If I'm with somebody, I'm with somebody." And you feel like... you have to go through this whole explanation of how just because I'm bisexual doesn’t mean I fuck everybody in sight. When I’m with somebody else, right? I’m committed to the person that I’m with.
Have you had that? I'm just curious.
I've had a few interesting conversations with friends or friends of friends. Because the first statement I get when I let people know is like: "But you're with a guy?" It's like, "Yes, I know." This is the whole point of the term 'bisexual' you know... I had an interesting conversation with a friend who said "I don't think I could trust someone, if I was with a bi person."
Yeah, that's interesting. It's the moral thing, isn't it?
Yeah, the assumption that you're promiscuous, or that you're constantly looking somewhere else. I had to be honest with the guy, I was like: "I'm sure there have been times when you have gone astray from a relationship and you're straight." And he was like: "Yes." And I was like: "Do you not see the irony of this?" "Yeah, I do.". I mean, I kept it a pleasant conversation. I pointed out the fact that promiscuity, you know, being unfaithful is definitely more of a personality thing. And a circumstantial thing (rather) than a sexuality thing.
Yes, definitely. And I think people do make that assumption. And I think they do get confused with the fact that you're attracted to either sex means that you're twice as likely to be, you know, amoral. [LAUGHTER] Or something. And it's not the case at all.
Yeah, it's education, isn't it? And not even education about sexuality, that's education of morals and being an honest person and not being, I hesitate to use the word 'slut'. It's not even a question to do with your sexuality.
Or the assumption that you're drawn to both at the same time. So there's a tension?
Is there a tension?
Exactly! Like, there isn't a tension.
I've never noticed it. I mean, what I'm attracted to is very specific, and it changes.
You know, when I look back on my 'straight' days. Without getting too... my straight days! [LAUGHTER] the straight days! That's the biography that I'll write, 'The Straight Days.' And then there'll be the sequel, 'The Gay Days,' and then there'll be a third one. I haven't got a title for that yet, I'll come up with it. [LAUGHTER] But, yeah... there's no overlap, when you're a straight guy, and you're attracted to women, there's no overlap between, "Well, you're attracted to blondes, you can't be attracted to brunettes as well. Because you’re a slut otherwise!"
I'm a guy, I look at all women anyway. I can't help it. Especially when you're a teenager, you can't help it. It's exactly the same when you're queer. There's no tension there. You don't, I don't feel like I'm betraying anybody, or betraying my sex, or betraying anything. If the person that I happened to be attracted to in that moment is a guy or a girl. I don't see the conflict. It's a conflict that's born from people who are, you know, completely heterosexual, not being able to think like that. Because it's simply not the way they're built, just like we're not built the same way they are. So they can't place their psyche into that frame of mind. In the same way that I can't place my psyche into the frame of mind of a completely straight person. I just can't think that way. It's education, isn't it? I mean, this is what I mean about "God. I really hope that one day we never have, never have to have these conversations anymore." Not because I want it buried, but wouldn't it be great if we all just accepted that everybody thinks in a slightly different way? And as long as you're not hurting anybody, as long as nobody's getting hurt or harmed and everything's consenting, what's the problem? That's my manifesto!
And do you find being a bisexual man has affected what reactions you've experienced?
It’s mostly been positive. Again, it's the choice of the people that you're telling. I don't think, as yet, I've put myself in a situation that is likely to be in any way confrontational. That could be self preservation. For instance, I'm not going to tell my dad. It's pointless. We don't get on at the best of times. He's 84. He's like Ozzy Osborne, he's got everything wrong with him. He should be dead. But something's keeping [him] alive. I think it's just belligerence [LAUGHTER] more than anything else at this point. It's not that he's not a decent person, I'm sure he could be. It's a societal thing. He grew up in a completely different culture and society from the one that I did. My mom and dad had me quite late, so my parents were older than most.
My mom was one of the best moms in the world, and she was in her own way, as a white Christian lady, actually quite progressive. Because for instance, I had a lot of gay friends when I went to do drama at college. First time I'd ever really come across gay people. So it was a real eye opener when I went to college. My mom was actually quite liberal in her own way, because I remember talking to her about it, because I felt concerned that she might be judging my friends. You know, "Oh, you know, Danny’s gay. Are you okay with having him in the house?" And she'd go: "Yes, no, he's lovely. It's not his fault he's ill."
Wow.
Right, right, exactly! But what you've got to understand is that was entirely upbringing and society at the time. That is indoctrination from day one. Because she was actually a really, really sweet woman. So I refuse to judge her by the standards of someone who's being brought up in the 2000’s, in terms of her opinions. So the fact that she was happy for me to have gay friends, really lovely to them, didn't treat them any differently from anybody else, ever. But she had in her head, her private little thoughts, the idea that they were ill. Now there is no way, if she was alive now, that I would ever be able to change her mind. So what would be the point? What would be the point of trying to? She's actually very nice to everybody. She's not doing any harm. I think we should just let that go. Now, my dad, [is] more likely to be a bit more belligerent and a bit more aggressive. So at 83, what is the point in me talking to him? It's better that he just lives his life and doesn't know.
When it comes to other friends, the problem I've got is that if I feel I can't tell them, then I'm starting to question the friendship. Because what is it that I'm picking up on? And do I really want to have that person as a friend now? And of course, the only way to really understand that is to actually tell them, so I'm gonna have to do it at some point.
So in terms of reaction, so far, it's all been very, very positive. But I think that's because I've been very selective. I need to start widening the net a little bit, I think. And I think maybe in a few months time, I'll have a few more less positive stories. [LAUGHTER]
I mean every, every story is important, whether it's negative or positive. It's about the people you feel comfortable [telling]
You're absolutely right. I think I've got the benefit of age because there is an element of you which after a while, just goes: "Oh, fuck it." You know? I don't care what anybody thinks. You know, I'm going grey. I'm a little larger than I used to be. Who cares? And that's the thing that I think you can only get as you get older. It's why old people are so racist. [LAUGHTER] Because they really don't care. "I'm nearly dead! I can say what I like."
In terms of when you're talking about your sexuality... does your current or previous partners’ gender have an effect on how people have responded to you? About the fact that you've come out?
No. Again, I think it's purely because the people I've spoken to are, you know, fairly clued-in to all of this. So they don't tend to have those kinds of questions on the edge of their lips. I've not had any situation where they've gone: "But your last partner was a lady! How do they feel about it?" And you just kind of go: "Well, they're kind of cool actually, it's fine." But as I said, it's early days for me. Right now I'm just trying to figure out what it means for me. I opened up to my friend a year and a half ago. And from that moment on, it's been a journey of educating myself as to who I am. A third of my personality, which has just laid dormant and atrophied for years is just kind of waking up. And I find myself in situations where I suddenly find myself thinking: "Oh, I'm attracted to that. Well, that's interesting. I never thought that." I've opened this side of my personality now, and I'm just trying to learn about it. It's like I'm meeting this whole other side of myself for the first time. And I need to just get to grips with that first and know myself thoroughly. And then maybe I'll be able to put myself into situations where I can tell people that might be a little bit more abrasive. But then I'll be secure in myself. And I'll have the answers that they may ask.
Whereas right now, I'm not entirely sure I would, because I'm still learning.
Are there any words or phrases or stereotypes, that you know of, that have been associated with people in the bisexual community?
Well, [I’m] not really sure, because growing up in the 70s it was all very binary. You're either gay, or you weren't. You're a lesbian or you weren't. Bisexuality... I'm not even sure I was aware of it as a concept. So all the negative stereotypes, the portrayals of gay people on television, and movies and books, it was all very black and white. It was like Mr. Humphreys, in 'Are You Being Served?'. If you were a gay man then you were obviously very effeminate. But obviously things have progressed enormously since then. I was talking to a guy recently on a job I was on and I came out to him. Because I know he's gay, and we're good friends. And I was like: "I'm just still trying to figure this out." And he's like: "Oh, dude, you're a bear!" And I was like "What's that?" And he's like, : "Oh it's a whole thing." I need to ask you more about it, because I don't know any more than that. But apparently 'bears' are a thing and bears are slightly larger, hairy men.
Yes!
Is that right?
It is, yes. Yes. It's a whole culture.
Is it?!
Yeah,
My God, I could clean up.
You could literally be set for life. [LAUGHTER]
If only I'd known that! But you know, that whole part of me has been buried. I'm still learning the terminology. I've been on the periphery of this culture for a very long time, because I have a lot of gay friends. But I wasn't part of it. Another friend of mine, I had a conversation with once. And he went: "Oh, you're an ally." And I was like: "Yeah, yeah, I'm an ally. That's what I am." So I was part of the community, but not really in it.
And now I'm finding myself in it for the first time. I remember when our mutual friends invited us to a bar in London. A gay bar. And that was a big thing for me. I'd never been there before. So I've been back there a few times since then, and once once with her. It never even occurred to me to go into a gay bar. So you know, I'm still learning!
So in terms of negative stereotypes, I've not had anything hurled at me. But I'm sure it's gonna happen at some point, and I'll just deal with it. Ultimately, I'm older. I'm 50. Call me what you like, I don't care. If you want to call me names, you can do what the hell you like, what difference does it make? I'm just gonna live my life. And if you don't like it, meh, whatever. [LAUGHTER]
What do you understand by the term ‘bierasure’? Have you heard that term before?
I haven't, you'll have to, you'll have to fill me in.
No problem. So bierasure is a kind of a burgeoning term for, for example, if you were to come out to someone, and they went: "Oh, but you're not really, it's just... you're just after attention." Or...
Ooh, okay, so you're just dismissing it?
Yeah. They're negating it. Or the: "But you're 50%, gay and 50% straight?" It's the, kind of, nonplussed denial of bisexuality as its own term.
How do I feel about it? I can understand why some people would find that deeply hurtful, because I guess they could argue that that person is trying to erase some fundamental part of who they are. They're dismissing it. They're not accepting it as real. At my time of life, when somebody does something like that,, it just doesn't hurt. It doesn't have any effect on me at all. You can use it as a teachable moment, I guess, and you can try and explain to them why they're wrong. [LAUGHTER] Why they're utterly, utterly, utterly wrong. But at the same time, I, I wouldn't be hurt, mortally wounded or offended by that, because it doesn't mean anything to me. Because it's not true. You can try and pretend that I'm not. You can try and explain it away as this, that and the other, but I know who I am. I know that the....[CHUCKLE] I like the idea of 50% straight, 50% gay. It's like there's a little line..
It's like there's a line down the middle. The left side of me is gay.
Yes, [LAUGHTER] my right hand is a complete mess. It doesn't know what it wants. It doesn't affect me, because it's not what's going on in my head. It's obviously a negative term. Again, it's just an education thing, it's about sitting down with these people, and just [having] a conversation. Because like any kind of phobia, homophobia, Islamophobia, anything like that, at the heart of it it's usually a fear of the other. A fear of the unknown. Which most of the time, kind of evaporates if you finally get everybody in a room talking. Because you suddenly realise that you've got much more in common with those people than you thought. That there's more in common than there is different. So all this, I don't know, bierasure, as you say, is fundamentally an example of somebody not being educated. Not having the experience of knowing bisexual people, or... And they just need to, you just need to talk to them.
You know that old adage, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. It's our job, I think, to lead them to the water. If they don't drink, there's nothing you can do about it. But at least we've done our part. We've met them halfway and tried to explain. If they still refuse to understand or simply can't, then I think there's more important things in the world to worry about than that particular person, right? Does that make sense?
Makes perfect sense. I think it's great. Thank you. Can you give an example of where you felt your sexuality was welcomed and accepted?
Oh yeah. Speaking to my friend was amazing, because I knew she'd understand, because she's gay as well. It was the fact that she, first of all went: "Oh, yeah, of course you are." [LAUGHTER] But then we sat there for an hour, and we just chatted about it. And immediately, she was like: "You should come out, we should all meet, we should go out for a drink." It was an immediate support network. Suddenly, I'd opened that door. [I] worried about was I just going to fall screaming into the abyss and actually, no, there was a whole group of people the other side welcoming me in. Brilliant. Brilliant.
You know, I should have known. In retrospect, I was being an idiot, worrying about it. But it's a big step. And big steps, you take tentatively sometimes. And it just takes a while for you to mature enough to get to that point where you can open that door and you suddenly realise: "Oh, I've got friends. I've got a support network, and they were there all the time." I was just too stupid and didn't see it.
Where do you feel most confident expressing your sexuality? Is there a space or community where you feel most welcomed and accepted?
Oh, yeah, of course. [My new group of friends], that’s where it all started for me because it was just such a cool bunch of people. It was a new group of people that I hadn't met before. So suddenly, here I was with a group of people that I'd never met, all of whom I thought were really cool. And let's face it, all of whom were much younger than me.
And it opened a lot of doors, because it feels like a safe space on a lot of different levels. Once you find that, it's really, really difficult to let go of. Because you're suddenly like: "Ah, okay, this is a really cool group, and I feel really safe. And I can say what I'm thinking and I know I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna feel embarrassed that I said something later. I'm not gonna feel like I made a fool of myself." You young people. You're awesome! You've got a lot to teach us bunch of old farts. Us old farts, we've got a long way to go.