“I don't say queer.”

Pronouns: He/Him

Opinions are the person’s own

TW: Interview includes the discussion of some offensive terms.

He/Him

Interview includes the discussion of some offensive terms.

And in terms of your own identity, how do you self-describe?    

I say bisexual, but I understand the word to be the same as pansexual. I just, I just say bi because it's what I say. I don't think I, like, some people claim that that implies a binary. But I see it as similar to like bilingual, means you speak more than one language. So, I don't mean it to be exclusionary of other gender identities. I just mean it because it's the term that I say.

Are there any terms that, obviously I've mentioned two already, like, queer or pansexual, are there any terms that you feel it you don't necessarily agree with? 

Oh, there's that. I don't say queer. Like, obviously I just said it, I don't say it to describe people or myself. Just because, again, it's a preferential thing. The way I like to speak about myself and about the people is tends to be quite casual. You know, if I was doing like a scholarly essay on what it means to be queer, and different, but I just think it's a word, which I [Audio cuts] The thing I normally say, the reason I don't say it is any word that has been screamed at someone while they're getting murdered is a word with enough weight that I don't want to just say it casually, you know. So, it's just a word that I think deserves a bit more respect than I give words. So, I tend not to use it. Same with the word 'faggot', or the 'N' word, you know. They're just, I don't say that even if I'm trying to quote someone else. Again, I've said them a few times now, but I'm just trying to make it clear.

No, absolutely. And I may use the term 'queer'. But if you'd rather I don't please let me know.   

It's a personal choice. You can say whatever you want. I don't police other people's language. I just police my own.

In terms of the word, term 'bisexual', what do you associate with that term? What feels good about the, you know, the term 'bisexual'? 

It's more understood universally. I think. It's...  yeah, I just think it's a... and it may be that that's just the first time I heard and that's the one I connected to. And that's why I say it. I just think pansexual never, didn't, doesn't seem to fit the way I describe my view of the world. Just, you know, the kind of get that little like, the taste in your mouth of a word. It doesn't seem to taste right for me. I just wouldn't, it for the same reason, I wouldn't call myself... something, something else. Well, yeah, I just don't, Yeah, I just don't say it. I don't, it doesn't feel like the correct word. Pan, bi. 

That's fair enough. 

 I understand them to mean the same thing. I just say bi.

Do you mind my asking, when did you first become aware of your sexuality?   

I came aware of something when I was about... when I was at the very end of primary school. So, like, year six, I think.  11-ish, that kind of age. And it wasn't that I associated like a word with anything. It was just like, "Oh, hey, these people are interesting to look at." And then I, you know, once it was described to me in more terms, you know. What, what... all of that stuff was, you know, I knew what sex was from quite a young age. I understood the reproductive cycle and I was reading books and stuff. It was like, I didn't notice that it was a smaller percentage of demographic that I was in until I was about 14/15. And it started to become "Oh," like, "okay, a lot of people are saying now that they have one or the other. I don't seem to have that." And there is, you know, that was when I realised it within myself. It wasn't until a little bit later that I started to, like, use the words, because obviously, I went to school, and I was ginger. So, the last thing I needed was someone to say, you know find out about who I was. [LAUGHTER] So yeah, that was like in college time that I was like, "Okay, all right. I'll go for both. That's fine." When I was in secondary school, oh goodness no, I was, I was, you know, straight as they come. I think for a while. I liked the term 'hetero flexible'.

Oh, I've never heard that before.    

It, that, it is like you're mostly straight, but you know, you have a good time with other people as well. You know, and I understand it now that it was a word of me trying to avoid, like, fully come to terms with an identity. "No, I'm straight. I just get crazy when I'm drunk." [LAUGHTER] But then it was like, "Alright, I just like both, it's fine. It's not as big a deal as I'm making it. It's certainly not as big a deal as these other people are making it. So, let's just, you know, pick whatever." Hetero flexible.

I'm writing that down. [LAUGHTER] And has coming out been part of your experience?    

No, not really. Not particularly. I think when, were, because I never had that, like, stepping out like "Here I am world," I think my experience as a bi person is slightly different to as a gay person. And again, I I can't really speak for someone else's story. But because, in theory, I could live my entire life, straight passing the whole time. It's never like one big thing. It's always like, lots of little coming outs today. So, it's always like, do I? You know, it's person to person, do I tell them about my ex-girlfriend or tell them about my ex-boyfriend? And it's always like making that choice, you know, I can, with this person, it might make my relationship easier with them, because of the way they are, I find if I just talk about one half of myself. And this other person, it might be useful the other way. Like, there are some gay people who don't, you know, don't like the 'bi thing'. And so, it's easier to talk to them about that other half, you know? So, it's always like a kind of constantly shifting choice, person to person, like, Where... How do I portray myself to you? So, each of those is like a tiny little coming out. It's just revealing whichever part of yourself is, you think is going to be the best of that situation. And sometimes, you know, you say both and it's great, you have no assignment. Sometimes it's like, absolutely not. For this person, I'm straight, because I can tell that they have some troubles with being a good person.

How does that make you feel, knowing that sometimes you have to make a choice? 

I think that's just part of being alive. I think, I think the world isn't the way we'd like it to be yet. And there are certainly some, sometimes I feel good enough to try and change that world. And I'll say, "Hey, I'm this" to a person that I know is gonna not like that and then I'll try and like, you know, make the world a slightly better place that day by revealing my true colours, whatever. I just think when, if you take the world as it is, sometimes you just have to, you have to play the game and go along with it. Because the sad truth is that if you, if you did be yourself 100% of the time, you... there's every chance that you get attacked, like, physically attacked. You know, even in London, which is nice and Metropolitan, you can't be making out with a boy on the bus. Because, actually, that's not, you know, it's just not safe to do that yet. Some places in London probably are fine, if you were in Soho at 3am, then, you know, great. But yeah, I just think it's, it's part of living in the world that you just accept the way it is. You hope for change, but you accept that it is not changed yet.

Yeah, absolutely. And the term 'coming out', what does that mean to you?   

Revealing that you are different from what most people consider the norm. And that can be, yeah, in any sort of way that you're doing it. As soon as someone is aware of that part of yourself, you've come out to them in a way. I think for some people that is a, you know, a declaration. "Mom, Dad, I'm this." For some people, it's, you know, wearing certain style of clothes out in the street and just letting the whole world see who they are. Sometimes it's just part of a conversation, where you talk about, "Oh, yeah, my boyfriend is going to come here in a second," or whatever. So, it's anytime you reveal that you are part of that percentage, the percentage of people that people sometimes still have a problem with. And that can be, I think it's the same, you know, for LGBTQ identities but also, some, you know, there are similar problems that people have with other, like, worldviews and identities. You know, if you're part of a smaller population that people tend to judge, then anytime you make a choice of revealing that part of yourself, then you are making a choice to possibly make yourself less safe in that situation. 

And when you have spoken to people about your sexuality, when you have.. I'll use the word coming out here, just for the purposes of that. And have you had any responses from individuals or groups about you're coming out?

Responses, do you mean like negative ones? 

Or positive, or neutral? Or...

Mostly, the kind of people that I, you know, you judge character before you do it. I tend not to, in general, I tend not to reveal anything about myself to strangers, you know. That's just kind of, in that way I'm a reserved person. But yeah, once you've had a conversation with someone, or if you’re in a certain context and you know it's, it's just gonna be nothing, water off a duck's back to them. Sometimes you get like, "Oh, oh okay." And then from then on, your relationship, you can tell they're treating you differently. Sometimes, you know, if your -

In what ways do you think they treat you differently?     

Well, if they know that you are possibly attracted to them in that way, they will become, as an example, less likely to make flirty jokes. You know? It's not that I'm expecting them to make flirty jokes anyway. But, like, you have a back and forth of answers. And it's like "Oh, yeah...." And then, you know, they realise that actually, "Oh, my God, he might think I'm being serious. Oh, no, don't... Yeah. [MOCK MANLY TONES]" It's, you know. Or sometimes, sometimes you get like a, [LIGHT DISDAINFUL VOICE] "Oh..." you know, from a particularly religious person. You go, "Oh, okay, fine." I don't tend to have extended relationships with those kind of people anyway, so it's like "All right, fine." You'll get over, I'm sure. Yeah, and then sometimes, on the other side of the spectrum, you get people who just don't believe you.

In what way? What do they say? 

There are some people who just didn't, don't believe that I'm attracted to guys at all. They think I'm taking the piss.

Seriously?

Yeah, you know, because they think I'm such a straight bloke. They'll be like: "Ah, whatever, like [MOCK MANLY TONE] Whatever!" ]LAUGHTER] And you go "Alright," and then there's the other side as well. There's some people who like, just wouldn't believe that I'm attracted to women. It's impossible to please. Because I've got, you know, so much glitter in my workshop. [LAUGHTER] So, you know, some people it's, I think, because everyone understands gay and straight, I think, generally. It is, like the 'novel' different thing is when you like both. It's like "Oh, really? That's weird!" You know, if it, even if it's not in those terms, it's like "Oh, wow. What's that like?" 'Cos a straight person understands liking one thing and a gay person understands liking and one thing in an even smaller population. Who likes both things? It's not quite in the scheme of the world. Sometimes you get like "Oh, no, you must be one or the other." Sometimes you get like, "Oh god, what's that like? So have you, like, Oh my god, sorry. Have you, like, licked a pussy?" [LAUGHTER] You just kind of, you know: "Yeah, yeah. I have. It's fine." [LAUGHTER]

Okay… you've touched on this briefly already, but I'd like to explore it a bit more. Do you think being a bisexual man affects what reactions you've experienced?  

I think probably, intellectually, I think so. I can't really speak to a bisexual woman's experience of being a woman. So, I can't really talk on any sort of real authority. But I think if I was to take, like, a colloquial understanding of what people see, girls kissing girls is like an exciting fun thing to straight men. And boys kissing boys is a very threatening thing for a lot of straight men. So, when you're in those, you know, it's like in the patriarchal kind of society. Something that challenges someone's masculinity is more severe than something that is just like a fun party activity for them. So, a girl coming out as bi is like, "Oh, cool, it means we can have a threesome with 2 girls!" With a boy coming out as bi it's like, "He's gonna try and bum me in the street." [LAUGHTER] I think the experience is different in that way, I think it's just part of being you know... Men's view of men is different to men's view of women. And it tends to be that society favours men's views of anything. And I think it's probably changing. If I think back to when I was 16, even to now, so 10 years. The world view is so different, like, something I wouldn't have dreamed of saying when I was 16, it's something that's quite normal for me now. You know, I think people are more, because it's more visible in media, people have a better understanding. People are, in general, more tolerant. And it, it's becoming a smaller population that you're worried about. But homophobia, I think, happens more towards men. If I had to make a grand sweeping statement, and I'm willing to be corrected by any number of LGBT women. I think that that's the kind of 'gross one' as opposed to the 'sexy one'. 

Yeah. And do you mind asking, do you have a partner at the moment? Are you with anybody at the moment?    

Yeah, at the moment, I'm with a guy. I have been for a couple of years now.

Do you think the gender of your partner affects what responses you get from people?  

Again, I don't really talk about myself to strangers. So, most people that know, like, they already know him. So, it's hard to sort of gauge I think, ever since I've been with him, it's more likely that people just think I'm gay. And so, there's more of it, like, I've had the conversation more times of "Oh, actually I'm bi."

You've had to, kind of, come out again?    

Yeah, there's that like, like I said, at the start is that, you know, once... If they see you one way, they don't really see you the both ways. So, it's, you know... And that's actually, it's another weird part about, I think, being bi is that I don't want... If I'm correcting someone, if they go: "Oh, yeah, cuz you're gay," it's like "Well, actually no I'm bi," if I'm correcting someone, I always feel like... I don't know, is it me? Does it come across as me saying "Oh, no, no, no don't worry. I'm not gay!" You know, "I still like the 'normal' thing, don't worry." Or is it me just being like, "Actually, you know, I exist, too."? And I don't know what I, I don't know what I'm doing when I, when I have to do it. So that's it's an interesting kind of challenge. Like, am I being homophobic? Or am I just promoting an identity that I think is valid?  You know, which is it? Is it wrong of me to say "No, actually, I'm not gay"? Or... I'll take that back. I don't normally say I'm not gay, I say I'm bi. I don't, I try not to say: 'I'm not this other thing'. I say what I am, because I think sometimes 'I'm not gay' is the one that like, you know, "Oh, God, anything but that!" You know. I've tried to say that the specific thing of "This is what I am." And I'm trying to say: "This is what I'm not". But again, yeah, it happens more often. They see us together, or, like, because he's a, he's a drag queen, and like, known the scene. You know, I kind of just follow around in the scene. And typically in the scene, everyone is gay. You know, there is a gay man or a gay woman, far fewer people are bi. And they're not really considered, like, you know, in the same breath. It's always an extra, like, "Oh! An extra thing, the 'B'!" [LAUGHTER]

(Jokes) Oh yeah! Where did that 'B' come from? Okay, and are you aware of any words or phrases or stereotypes, that you know of, that are associated with the bisexual community?

The stereotype is that we are um, we're, like... There's two stereotypes that I see myself in. One is that we are the ones that like to sleep around. And just, you know, because they're like 'oversexed', or they just do whatever. The other stereotype is that a bi person is just a gay person in denial. So that happens quite a lot. Because all right, you know, "Oh, ‘Jonathan’ [a name given in example] has just come out as bi." "Whatever. He's not, he's gay." And then sometimes, ‘Jonathan’, two years later is like "Oh, actually, I am." You know, I know a lot of people who've had that journey. And it's like, an easy stepping stone, because you have that safety net of being like, 'I still like a normal thing. I just also like this other thing.' And there's some people who, you know, have the whole time they have to live with that, like "No, I'm not just gay. I do like both, and that's fine." So that's what I hear most often is like, it's either a stepping stone to being a real proper gay. Or it's just like this, you know, "Ah, they'll take anything, they're just oversexed." I've never heard or been aware of any specific terms to call a bi person. I'd love to hear some if you know of any.

I mean, I've got a list mate! There's 'greedy', there's 'confused'. There's we can't sit in chairs right. And there's 'it's women who are just angry at men. So, she's going through a phase.' It's...   

Oh, yes. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I thought you meant like, I thought you meant specific, like a slur. I was…

It can also be positive words or stereotypes. I'm just curious to see what people's knowledge of stereotypes or phrases attached to the term are.

 No, yeah, I haven't heard any specific like, slurs. I mean, I get you know, I've been called a 'batty boy' because of the gay part. And I've been called a 'breeder' because of the straight part. Although I don't think either of those parts is true. I think it's all just a ‘bi part’ that's a separate thing. Sometimes it's easy to conceive of it as two halves. I haven't had any like specific slurs for bi people. I've only heard like those, those general stereotypes that you were saying; 'greedy'... I haven't heard the thing about chairs, but that just seems like a weird thing to say anyway.

I think it's more of a light-hearted kind of joke.     

Yeah.

That we can't sit in a chair right?    

'Greedy', 'greedy', 'confused.... that's all, that's all the, yeah, standard. standard fare, I think. "Oh, you're not bi, you're just gay, whatever. Stop being in denial."

Yeah. And... do you think there are any stereotypes or slurs or words or phrases that are associated particularly for bisexual men?    

Just the ones that are attached to being gay. I think you get the same slurs. I don't think, I don't think any, any... any other things happen like... It's just the thing you get from both sides is like 'confused'. You know? "You're actually just gay. You're..." whatever. Or like, I think if you're a woman, you might get 'attention seeking' more. I don't think, because people, because no one wants to see a man make out with another man and I think you get [AUDIO CUTS OUT]. So, I think is just more like "You're gay. You're just pretending." Sometimes, I haven't experienced this personally, but I do know other bi people that have... There's the judgement from gay men that because you have sex with a woman you are somehow... I mean, I'm sure you've heard the phrase 'goldstar gay.' So, it's like that misogynistic thing that you get from, sometimes from gay men. Like any contact with a woman is yucky. So, I think women get that as well, lesbian women, to bi women, I think have a similar kind of thing. You know, any contact with a dick is like, yucky. Yeah, again, just a normal, normal thing, I think. There's nothing more for being a man than a woman other than the fact that I think, I'm gonna use the word queer, men get more shit than women?

And are you familiar with the term 'bi erasure'?     

Yes, I am. 

What do you associate with that term?

I think what I was talking about, like, in my life is that people just assume that you're gay. And so, when they see, like on a TV show, if they're in the... Yeah, whether it's on TV, whether it's in any sort of media, whether it's a real-life person, they just assume they're (the) gay one, if they (them) see kissing a man. So, it's, it's, you know, it's just the easiest conclusion to jump to. And invariably, that leads to the erasure of those kind of identities in people's, like, first thoughts.

Do you think there's enough bi visibility in the media today?

I think I don't know the percentages very well, of what is shown in media and what is in real life. I think probably... I think probably, we could do with better representation. The difficulty lies in if you're showing someone as bi in a TV show, unless they come out and say like, "Hi, I'm bi", then you have to show them with, like, in a relationship with a man and a woman, or like, you know, two people of different gender identities. Which, with most TV media, showcases them as like, it's like any character is kind of oversexed. And so, you often get the stereotype of bi people are oversexed, and that just sleeping with whoever. 'Schitt's Creek' is a good example of not that. Because they have -

I've meaning to watch this, I haven't seen this yet.     

Oh, it's excellent. I think he doesn't ever say he's bi. Which I, you know, I think he could have. I think they did, they did the cute thing of like, "Oh, I don't have labels for myself. I just like whatever." It's like: "Alright, fine. At least they're showing you in a relationship with a man and a woman. That's fine." I wish they would have used the word. But again, that's another problem. You don't often see people being like "This is what I am." They just go like, you know "Why put labels on anything, man? We're just people at the end of the day." Yeah, right. So, I think that happens a lot. And I think they could do more of just being like, 'this person is a bi character'. You know, great. Use the word, showcase them in relationships with men and women. Try not to stick to those stereotypes of being like an incredibly camp man, who is, you know, for all intents and purposes coded as gay, but, you know, sleeps with women, that a, that's a different thing. Or like, an incredibly butch straight man who, the twist, in a shocker, he sleeps with... You know, it's it. Always this always seems to be like a novelty. I think they could do more of having a very boring bi character. That's what I'd like to see, a very dull, uninteresting bi character.

I'm gonna write that down. 'Boring bi character.' I think you're right. I think it's always... the sexuality becomes a plot twist, like "Oh, this is gonna get interesting because..." I'd  love to see a bi person just have a cup of tea. And it just be 'this is what a bi person looks like when they have a drink.' [LAUGHTER]   

Have you watched 'Crazy Ex-Girlfriend?'

No, this is another one I have been told to watch by another person I've spoken to.   

Because.. there's a bi character in that. Who, I think they've done their best. They did their best to, like, showing it...  Again, it just became such a big plot point. Because he 'became bi' and like he learned he was bi and then he was in relationship with a man for seasons and seasons and seasons. Then I think in the last one they finally got him interested in a woman again, but it was just this whole massive deal and then everyone was like "That's so weird!" In the show it was like, "He's.. what do you mean? Like he's bi, that's so weird." 

Right. 

Yeah, I think it's a definite... Maybe that's my, that's my treatise: bring more boring bi people. 

[LAUGHTER] I'll put that in the show. It'll be a boring show. 

A boring show for boring people who like more than one gender. [LAUGHTER] And I think... there's something I wanted to think about because I don't really get to talk about things a lot.

Please, what would you like to talk about? 

There's an interesting, like, the word is 'bisexual'. Right? It has the word 'sex' in because it is to do with like genitals. Right? The word isn't 'bi romantic.' So, what I always find interesting, or like challenging, is that the gender identity of the person simply doesn't matter to me. I had like an... and it's not even something I can, I don't care about it. But what, you know, the most obvious connection I have with my own bisexuality is that it’s both sets of like, 'bits' for people that I deal with and enjoy dealing with. So, when I talk to a gay person, we talk about like, you know, "Are you attracted to the junk or are you attracted to the man part?" They're like, "Oh, it's the man part." It's like "Oh, you know, what is it about a man that, you know...?" It's just, it's a different... and maybe it's just the relationship I have with myself more than anyone else. But for me, the word 'sex' is in there for a reason. It's not... the person is, you know, it's, it's an attraction to biology. And then the romance side of it is just a, you know, separate, completely different thing. It's more personality based. And I don't know, I don't know what it's like to not be bi. You know, in the same vein, in the same token that gay person doesn't know what it's like to be bi. I don't know what it's like to give a shit about the 'person' part, you know? And you know, day to day, you feel like... I mean, this is going too, too deep, and you can stop me if I go too far. 

As long as you're comfortable, I'm comfortable.    

You know, day to day.... And I don't know if you're the same, you find yourself, like, interested more in one set of junk than the other. And I'm talking specifically what you Google. [LAUGHTER] You know, when you when you've got some -

Free time.  

If I, you know, I find myself going through like, a little like, "Oh, I'm bored of... I'm bored of seeing dick, I wanna see something else." Or "I'm bored of that; I want to see that." And you know, that's the bit that I, kind of, notice more. It's never like "I want to see a handsome gentleman with a top hat and tails." It's like "No, I wanna see what his, you know, take his trousers off!" [LAUGHTER] 

No, I get that. I totally appreciate that. And for me, personally, it's more... the person I find attractive than the 'bits'. So obviously, that's the fun bit afterwards, like once you've got to know them a little bit. Or, you know, maybe not. But yeah, like, in that kind of thing. I'm kind of similar, like I do kind of go "Oh, I think I'm a bit more towards this kind of way today or a bit more towards that." I see it as very fluid.     

So that's just when it comes to like the 'bits', and then like you said, they did it as well. You see the people, and you talk to the people. You know, and then I'm going to talk to the person, whatever they have, we have a lovely time. Like, I'm just, you know, if I'm talking about the continuous relationship with the sexuality part of it, that's the bit that fluctuates, because the other bit doesn't come into it until you actually meet a person.

Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because, I mean, obviously we use the term straight and gay more than we use heterosexual and homosexual. And I don't know whether the fact that those names have then kind of been changed or colloquialized to 'straight' and 'gay'. Suddenly, the word 'sex' is out of their terms, if you know what I mean. Whereas for us, it's either 'bi' or 'bisexual'. Sometimes, you know, like, the word 'sex' pops up really quickly in it. So, I always think, whether that, the actual the fact that the word becomes... is more obvious is what puts people in that mind more. If you know what I mean, for judgement. Does that make sense?   

No, it does make sense. I've heard some people who like bandy around terms like 'homo romantic' but that's usually when someone... and I'm speaking in general terms to try to make myself clear, which is often misleading. It's usually when someone has a slightly more like, complicated view of themselves, as a, you know. So, it's usually someone who is particularly like au fait with terms and the use of queer terms that will say like, you know, 'asexual Homo romantic' and 'bi platonic', you know, and there's a lot of different words thrown into it. Yeah. And that's the only time I hear like, consideration for the fact that you, you know, it's not the word 'sexual'. It's when someone, is has a lot of words attached. And there's another interesting thing, like the word 'bi' is the same, generally for both sexes. Or, like, across all gender identities, it's always 'bisexual.' Whereas lesbians are lesbians. If you say gay, typically people, I think, think of men. For homosexual, I think people typically think of men. And then you have non-binary people, who are non-binary people. But they're all bi, if they're bi, you know, there's no like, specific. You know, I'm a boy bi or a girl bi. Or a non-binary bi. I don't know whether that changes people's relationship of the thing. It's, you know, gays and lesbians, bisexuals. Not gays, lesbians, boy bi and girl bis. 

Yeah. We're kind of lumped together.     

Well, yeah, we kind of, we go as, as a team. I don't know, I don't know what that means in terms of people's perceptions. But I always thought it was interesting that like, you know, me and a bi lady are the same to these other people. Even though we have very different, very different, like, views of and relationship to the world. You know, and even in the context of us being bisexual, we have different relationships with the world. You know, it would be as silly as saying that a lesbian has the same life experience as a gay man. They absolutely don't. Even in their own communities they don't But some reason bi people are like expected to have the same kind of life. 

Yeah. I get it, I know what you mean. We're kind of, I want to say, not lumped off together. But like "Oh, we've got. you know, gay men, we've got lesbian woman, and there are the bis, over there, like... in the corner, altogether"    

I think it's a surprisingly small percentage. Instinctively, I would, if I was thinking of like, mathematically, I would have thought that'd be more bi people than gay people. With the, with that Kinsey spectrum, you would have thought that like, yeah, the group of people that you could call bi, or have a larger volume than the gay side? As it turns out, way more people call themselves gay.

Yeah, I was actually doing some research recently, obviously, for this, and came across a study that the... in the past have between 2014 to 2018, the number of people who identified has been attracted to more than one gender nearly doubled. I can't remember the exact number, myself, I'll find it for this. But... actually to the people who actually then started to become more comfortable with calling themselves bi or pan or whatever, actually, in that four-year span increased.    

So do you think, yeah, maybe it's people being forced to identify with one or the other to fit in?

Maybe?   

I think because those barriers have been broken down? 

I think a lot of, actually, you know, people who maybe before passed as straight, and actually went "You know, actually, I feel like I need to talk about this a bit more." 

…And that's why for the longest time, I just didn't. I just said, "No, no, no, no, no." Because as soon as someone found out their relationship... and I didn't want the relationship to change, I didn't care that they I didn't, I didn't think that they would, like, be violent or aggressive or rude, or, you know, whatever. I just thought... and I knew that in the past, that relationships change. And we had a good friendship, like I don't want that friendship to change. And I don't want to- 

I know exactly what you mean. 

- say something that means kind of nothing. Almost, you know, it's just the way that I am. 

Yeah, I know what you mean. 

I mean, I've never had, I've never had to come out to a partner about it. Because the only... I think you rarely have to come out to someone. And... the people I meet, I rarely have to, like, keep anything secret. Which is lucky. If I'm, if I'm developing a relationship with someone then normally it's in a context where everyone assumes everything. Like yeah, there's definitely like.. my, my parents finding out that I had a boyfriend was my mom asking me if he was my boyfriend. I was like, "Yeah," it wasn't like "Mom, dad, this is [REDACT] He is going to be my partner" [LAUGHTER]. It was never that. It was always "Oh, yeah. You know, you're coming to London? Ah, I'll bring [REDACT[." "You keep talking about [REDACT], is he your boyfriend?" "Yeah." "Okay." 

That was it?    

Yeah. And there was a couple of conversations afterwards where it's like, people are like "Oh, no, you're just gay." It's like "I'm not, actually." Yeah, but you might as well be. " It's like, "Yeah, all right. I understand why you say that." And I've had this conversation with people... "I understand why you say that, because I'm a relationship with a man and I may as well be, but I'm not", you know... You know, "part of who I am is that I'm not. I'm this, I'm this other thing." And so, it must be similar for you, like "Oh, you may as well just be straight, because you're in a relationship with a man." Do you ever get it... When... I mean, I experienced something similar recently… But what struck me and talking to like LGBT friends, similar things, was everyone's insistence that part, you know, diversity in theatre means that everyone has to wear the labels on the chest. And so, you're playing a gay character? You know, we'd love it if that person is themselves gay to have a bit verisimilitude. But this seems to be an expectation, that someone has to help themselves to do that part. When I don't think that... I personally don't think that's fair. I don't think that's progress in terms of representation, to make someone reveal that part of themselves in order to play a part. There was like, "Well, it's not a representation. It's not a representation." It can't be that we have to like out ourselves to the world in a public space to be in a play. That doesn't feel like it's correct. Doesn't feel like we're going in the right direction. If someone wants to write some wants to say, you know, "me being gay has really informed my view of this part." Great. But you can't...if someone has chosen to keep their private life private, you can't make someone just be like, out themselves. It feels really unfair. Yeah, I think it has to be a conscious effort to not make the the theatre industry force people to come out. I think that feels wrong. It's great when we see representation in both like character and actor, we love it. But it has to come from the person. It can't come from production needs, In my opinion,

Whatever else you want to add, I'd love to hear it. And you mentioned briefly about the kind of responses that you've had. So, did you say that you've not had any negative responses, really?

Not any, like, not anything that I would consider really negative. It's usually kind of like a… it's either someone going "No, you're not, you're gay." Or someone, like, a slightly fusty Christian who will go a bit like, a bit 'purse' at it. You know, I've never had really, like, the... And I guess it's because I judge character before I do it. That I wouldn't, you know, to someone who is about to be violent. Or really cause trouble. It's normally just like a, either dismissiveness or kind of fusty religious... you know.

Yeah. How does that make you feel when you get that response?    

I don't respect the opinion of Christians in general, and, and I don't care. Like, it's easy to go "No, I am!" You know, I'm happy to take on the burden of being like "Yeah, it's real." Yeah, I think and this is, it comes from my life philosophy. I don't, I don't really get upset by people. Because normally, there's, there's two camps. If I respect their opinion on something, then it's something that I, you know, that I change, and I work on and improve, because I care about what they say. And I don't get upset about it. Because it's, you know, something to do. 'Good. I respect your opinion on that. I will, you know, do you have any more details? Thank you so much for the feedback.' But when it's something like, "I don't believe what you do is moral." Oh, I don't care about that opinion. So, it just sloughs off, you know? It's, I think, if I don't respect the opinion that it's a 'fake' thing. So, it doesn't affect me, but someone delivers that opinion. And then case by case, I determine whether I want to try and educate them or just go "Alright." You know, "I clearly am not destined to have a meaningful long-term relationship with this person." So let's just leave it there. I don't.... I am lucky in that I don't really give a shit. When, when someone has negative opinions about who I am, or who other people in the community are. And again, that's very rare. Normally, it's normally if it's like, it's never really judgement, it's more ignorance. I'm happy, I'm happy to deal with ignorance, because often it comes from like, a good place. You go "Actually, yeah, no, it's a real thing." You know, I like both. It's never malevolent, really. And if it is, I don't care.

I mean, do you think that's resilience that you've had to learn? Or do you think that's always been your outlook?    

I think it's a resilience that I support myself through mindfulness in other aspects of my life. And it just so happens that it works equally well for this, you know. That, that attitude of like, either I respect their opinion or that or they don't. And, you know, teaching myself that if I feel badly about something then it's a choice that I've made, and I can choose to not make that, I could choose to feel differently. And so, yeah, kind of that empowerment to choose how to be affected by something, I think is really, really useful in all aspects. And what I still get is a reticence to talk about myself. Generally, because I find, and this is maybe a selfish thing, because I am fairly straight passing you know when I'm not covered in glitter, but for the most part, especially if I'm like talking to... You know, I'm a character actor, Kim. [LAUGHTER] You know, I'm good at characters. I can, I can have a conversation with someone, and you wouldn't know that I am. Anything but a '1950's', you know, 'normal boy'. So, if I consider it like useful, then I will happily just pretend. You know, I think that's probably a bad thing, on balance, and I shouldn't pretend. But if I'm on a job, and it's all like, "lads, lads, lads, lads, lads, lads!" Then the last thing I'm going to be is the one queer one. I'm going to be one of the 'lads, lads, lads, lads, lads'. And then they're going to continue to employ me and pay me money. And that's not to say I ignore bigotry, because I do challenge bigotry. But I don't do it, as like, "how dare you say that about me?" I do it as like, you know, "don't say that about people." You know? And I think yeah, maybe it's me using my privilege to have access to bigots and educate them. And maybe it's just me using my privilege to get myself further along in life, which has its own slate of problems. But I think being bi and being able to talk about relationships with women, and exclude the relationship with men offers a certain amount of freedom that being 100% gay probably doesn't give you, you know? In a world that has expectations of what 'normal' is. You know, because so much of yourself, you know, aligns with that perception. Yeah, I can be [inaudible] really easily, and not really, lie, just exclude that parts that...you know. But I mean, it's... I would like it to be the case that I didn't do that. You know, I would like the world to be such that I felt comfortable being completely upfront all the time. And it's getting more and more that way, once I'm slightly more settled in my career. But those first, like, couple of anxious years working on a film set. No, I would do nothing to make myself feel anything but normal to these people. And I've already got bright orange hair, like there's very little, like I've got to find the wins when I can. [LAUGHTER]

And in terms of positive reactions, can you think of one time that someone responded very positively to learning,     

Oh, I can think of -

- not meaning like a celebration in you know, 'jazz hands'. In terms of just when you felt comfortable, and it was accepted, and it was welcomed?    

I mean, if I'm trying to get laid, the news that you can get laid with the person you're speaking to is often very welcome. But it's like I said, because I'm straight passing. If I'm talking to someone I want to sleep with, and just, you know, I get to sneak into the conversation, that it's an option. Oh, the delight that comes on their face! Hooray! [LAUGHTER] And it's happened the other way around as well as well. So, like, if I'm in a gay bar with my friends, and there's some straight people there as well. And I want to speak to one of them, straight women. You know, hey, "I'm both, I'm bi." You know, they're like "Oh! Fantastic!" And sometimes, you know, once actually, I don't mean sometimes, once. I've said like, "Oh, no, I'm interested in women as well." And she said like "Oh, thank God! I thought everyone here was going to be queer!" And I went: "Oh, I don't think we're going to...." I was like "Yeah, well, you know, I'm just gonna go talk to my friends."

Oh God! [LAUGHTER]    

I was like: "I don't want to sleep with a homophobe." That's terrible! 

No, not sexy. And are there any certain spaces or communities where you feel most welcomed and accepted?

… you talk about like, spaces and feeling welcome. I am a confident, middle class, white man. There are very few places that I feel uncomfortable. You know, the world was built to cater for me, personally. And so, when I go to you know, I, I've never felt like I don't belong in a room, which again, is a very lucky thing. I enjoy the fruits of that privilege. Yeah. So, I've never felt particularly uncomfortable enough to talk about being particularly bi. Obviously, if I'm, you know, being 'gay', being like, 'hey', and, you know, kissing boys, then it's nice to be in a place where other people are kissing boys. Because then you don't feel like you're gonna get hate crime. So in that respect, yes. But if you're just talking about being in a place, then that, you know. It just, it affects the behaviour that I would consider [inaudible] It's not about identity. It's about what I'm doing.

That makes sense. Is there anything else you want to add? Or any questions you want to ask? Or any of the things you want to talk about, really? That's what my questions. You've absolutely nailed them, to be honest. Not that there were correct answers, if you know what I mean. But like, they were really detailed, interesting answers.   

Well, it's interesting to talk about, I think, because it's a section of the community that, and you talk about bi erasure and I think that's a real thing. Not just within media, but within, like, the way people think about the community. And, you know, I'm really, really lucky in all aspects of my own sexuality. I've never really had to deal with a home issue, or any sort of real violence. I've never had to deal with it. Which I count my blessings (for). Yeah, I think it's... The community could be better served with like, not immediately thinking 'gay.' Because it forces that, like, that not nice conversation of "Oh, no, I'm actually different." And it's always that extra line. Or you can kind of let someone know who you are. And I think that... [Inaudible] is that much to be a part of life? You know, there's some things which you can't really, because it's easy to conceive of one thing. And because more people are one thing, most people just assume that the person is straight. And then if they're not that, what's the second one? Gay. And then maybe it's the third one, bi, and then the fourth one trans? You know, it kind of goes in that order. So, I don't mind it. I just think it's it, you know, there's definitely stuff we could do. And maybe it is about making boring bi characters that seem normal, about doing theatre about doing media. Or maybe it's just about being, talking to people, you know, (jokes) having more polyamorous threesomes. [LAUGHTER] I'm lucky in all these things. I don't know. 

[Later in interview]

I think it just comes from the fact that they, their schema of the world. [Inaudible and laughter] The view of the world is, is just one that contains attraction to one gender. It just doesn't account for the idea that there might be an attraction for two genders. And so you always have to explain like, "Imagine that you like boys, but then the same way you like them is also girls." You know, it's, it's not the first thought that they have. It's like someone... It's like, the whole thing of like, what you see as green isn't the same as what I see as green, necessarily, but we might call it green. You know, just because it's not same kind of attraction that you have, it's still attraction. And you can still compare it directly one to one. It's not like it's a completely alien thing.  It also happens that it's from my head, not yours. 

Yeah. I had a conversation with a guy because actually, he was asking what show I was making next. And I was like: "Actually I'm doing a show about bi visibility."  He was like "Oh, so you're bi?" And I was like: "Yes." And he was like: "Well, first of all, brilliant!" It was like "That didn't need to be part of this conversation, but thank you." And, and then he was like "I'd constantly worry that if I was with a bi person they'd cheat on me all the time." And I was like "Okay, why?" He was like "Well, you must just be with a guy but then constantly miss being with a woman?" I was like "How does that work?" And they were like "Well... one... because like one he is being scratched," and he literally said this: "One itch is being scratched, but another one isn't." That's not how it works! It's not like a thirst that needs to be sated, if you know what I mean. Because no, I can't imagine being straight or being gay is like that. And we had this conversation [LOSS OF AUDIO] realising and going "Actually if someone's, you know, the likelihood of being likely to cheat is surely a personality thing, not a sexuality thing." It's a circumstantial thing.

But, again, it's like, he talks about itches being scratched... The biological input that you get is the same, more or less. And even if it's not, like, the same in the first thing, you can buy things that make it the same.

Yeah,  

You know.

It's easy! There's websites for that.    

People can be pegged, it's easy. [LAUGHTER] So, you say, the itch, the itch being scratched. It's the.... it's so comprabable. Because your nerve endings are doing the same things. And maybe it's like, maybe there is a, an element of like "Oh, it is different. And isn't it nice to mix things up?" But at the same time, you know, that's true of any relationship ever. So if you're cheating, you're cheating. …The itch to sleep with a blonde person. You know, because like, no! It's the same. [LAUGHTER]

Because a person is enough for, even if I was in long term relationship with a woman, that person would be enough for me, if I wanted to be in a long-term relationship with them. Like you said, there are things that you can buy, if you're like, "Oh, actually, you know..." you're missing... if you want to spice it up a little bit. It's not, I don't have to run to another person.

I simply must be penetrated today.

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